Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Benjamin Krumholz]

I know a few companies make RF to Fiber interfaces like OPTIX by RF Venue.. But does any one do something similar that will work on an IP network?!
It is amazing that we can now do COM over IP with Helixnet, LQ and Freespeak II. It is making the possibilities fairly limitless..
In a perfect world my dream box it would have 2 x antenna inputs and 2 x antenna outputs and have Primary/ Secondary Dante Ethercons.. And would cost about 1k ! I can dream right..
Ben

[Pete Erskine]

I know a few companies make RF to Fiber interfaces like OPTIX by RF Venue.. But does any one do something similar that will work on an IP network?!
It is amazing that we can now do COM over IP with Helixnet, LQ and Freespeak II. It is making the possibilities fairly limitless..
In a perfect world my dream box it would have 2 x antenna inputs and 2 x antenna outputs and have Primary/ Secondary Dante Ethercons.. And would cost about 1k ! I can dream right..
Ben

IP does not have the bandwidth and the RF would need to be turned into DATA to traverse cat cable.  RFOF is a simple analog conversion of the rf spectrum into light and back into RF - no processing necessary.

[Jason Glass]

I know a few companies make RF to Fiber interfaces like OPTIX by RF Venue.. But does any one do something similar that will work on an IP network?!
It is amazing that we can now do COM over IP with Helixnet, LQ and Freespeak II. It is making the possibilities fairly limitless..
In a perfect world my dream box it would have 2 x antenna inputs and 2 x antenna outputs and have Primary/ Secondary Dante Ethercons.. And would cost about 1k ! I can dream right..
Ben

Peter is dead-on correct about RF transport vs. data transport.  RFOF functions completely in the analog domain.

If you want to explore technology that converts RF to data and links devices via cat5 cable, look at Atheros wireless, Freespeak II intercom (as you mentioned), and Bolero intercom systems. Most of them use proprietary network protocols but function similar to IP networks.

[Scott Holtzman]

Peter is dead-on correct about RF transport vs. data transport.  RFOF functions completely in the analog domain.

If you want to explore technology that converts RF to data and links devices via cat5 cable, look at Atheros wireless, Freespeak II intercom (as you mentioned), and Bolero intercom systems. Most of them use proprietary network protocols but function similar to IP networks.

This is easier to understand (IMHO) if you take a few minutes to understand the OSI
 model.

RF, copper, fiber and radio baseband are all Layer 1 technologies.

A device that converts between different layer 1 technologies is a media converter and doesn't have to have any understanding of the protocols in the upper layers.

Dante is Layer 3 protocol.  You need a network stack to transport via wireless.

Does this make sense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

[Tim McCulloch]

This is easier to understand (IMHO) if you take a few minutes to understand the OSI
 model.

RF, copper, fiber and radio baseband are all Layer 1 technologies.

A device that converts between different layer 1 technologies is a media converter and doesn't have to have any understanding of the protocols in the upper layers.

Dante is Layer 3 protocol.  You need a network stack to transport via wireless.

Does this make sense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

No, Scott, it doesn't make sense for anyone who doesn't understand networking beyond the "plug the CAT5 cable into the router."

What's a network stack?  A pile of old routers that are in the recycle bin? /sarc

I know what you're talking about but I'd wager that at least 75% of non-IT folks that participate here have no idea what you mean.

[Russell Ault]

I know a few companies make RF to Fiber interfaces like OPTIX by RF Venue.. But does any one do something similar that will work on an IP network?!
It is amazing that we can now do COM over IP with Helixnet, LQ and Freespeak II. It is making the possibilities fairly limitless..
In a perfect world my dream box it would have 2 x antenna inputs and 2 x antenna outputs and have Primary/ Secondary Dante Ethercons.. And would cost about 1k ! I can dream right..
Ben

Hi Ben!

Taking a different approach to your question:

In theory something similar to this already exists, although not quite at the price-point you're searching for. Both Sennheiser and Shure make multi-channel wireless receivers with antenna pass-through and Dante outputs. Shure's ULXD4D is probably the most accessible of the bunch (at least cost-wise), and will receive up to two wireless microphone signals and put them basically straight onto a Dante network. The receiver in question appears to have a US MAP of just over $2.5k, and like most wireless product lines it basically only works with its own microphones.

-Russ

[Mac Kerr]

Hi Ben!

Taking a different approach to your question:

In theory something similar to this already exists, although not quite at the price-point you're searching for. Both Sennheiser and Shure make multi-channel wireless receivers with antenna pass-through and Dante outputs. Shure's ULXD4D is probably the most accessible of the bunch (at least cost-wise), and will receive up to two wireless microphone signals and put them basically straight onto a Dante network. The receiver in question appears to have a US MAP of just over $2.5k, and like most wireless product lines it basically only works with its own microphones.

-Russ

How is Dante equivalent to RF over IP? The OP's question was about using IP technology to replace long antenna runs, and perhaps have a distributed network of antennas for wide area coverage (he didn't really explain what he wanted his hypothetical box to do).

His examples are all of audio over IP however and the Freespeak, Bolero, Romeo comm systems all include the transmitters and receivers in the antenna package, allowing the network to carry only audio and control signals to the remote antenna/transceiver package, which you can run a hell of a lot of on even a 1GB network.

Audio distribution over IP is a fairly well understood idea at this point with the wide use of Dante in the live sound world and LAWO's network that runs on Ravenna on the TV side. AVB, while less understood, is part of quite a few products. All of these systems can carry in the neighborhood of 500 channels on a 1GB network, many more if your distribution system can be designed into a segmented system where not all traffic can go everywhere at any given time.

At this time it is possible to build a pretty diversified, distributed, antenna system with analog RF over fiber systems. I think somewhere in these forum there is a line drawing of Jason Glass's system design for the remote broadcasts we do of a late night TV show. It is pretty impressive.

Mac

[Russell Ault]

How is Dante equivalent to RF over IP?

Hi Mac!

Of course you're right, Dante has nothing to do with RF over IP. What I noticed in reading the original post, though, is that the OP didn't actually use the term "RF over IP" or mention anything about long antenna runs; I think we all assumed that's what he was talking about because of his reference to RFoF. What he did say was the following:

In a perfect world my dream box it would have 2 x antenna inputs and 2 x antenna outputs and have Primary/ Secondary Dante Ethercons.. And would cost about 1k !

...which to me sounded a heck of a lot like the ULX-D multi-channel receivers (or the Sennheiser 6000/9000, etc.).

I'm not exactly sure what the OP had in mind, but his mention of Dante in his post made me think that perhaps we were misinterpreting what he was trying to do, and so I thought I'd try a different angle.

-Russ

[Benjamin Krumholz]

...which to me sounded a heck of a lot like the ULX-D multi-channel receivers (or the Sennheiser 6000/9000, etc.).

I was not referring to the audio signal, but i can put this in to the example.. On a ULXD or some other wireless Receiver, what if out of the Dante port you were able spit out your UHF antenna connections. Wouldnt that be wonderful.. But take the " DANTE or AVB" out of it.

Going back to the network base here, Tim is correct in assuming that I dont know much about "networking" So why isn't there a switch that can network all of the "layers" together.

Really the idea for me is all about what i call the "one cable solution." Clearcom/ HME and Reidel make cards to interface EVERYTHING. They can transport, Audio, Video, Networking and Control, SDI, HDMI, HDSDI.

Why not UHF antenna?! I guess i get the Bandwidth problem. But with compression and advances in DSP, seems like this should not be an issue...

Im not looking to plug an LPDA or a Helical right into my Cisco SG300 with POE. (really yes I am) Of course there would need to be an interface. But if this is an ANALOG to light conversion as Pete states, Why cant that conversion be digitized and transported as such?! Then be amplified/ rectified on the back-end somewhere

Am i Crazy?!

[Keith Broughton]

The closest I have seen to "something like this" is the Shure Microflex wireless conference system.
The "antenna" is actually a Dante network device that acts as a receive antenna and can also transmit changes to the wireless mics.
Yes, it does operate on a digital audio network but, it allows for antennas to be as remote as required.

As for the descriptions of "network layers" I'm rather fond of chocolate layer cake....

[Benjamin Krumholz]

The closest I have seen to "something like this" is the Shure Microflex wireless conference system.
The "antenna" is actually a Dante network device that acts as a receive antenna and can also transmit changes to the wireless mics.
Yes, it does operate on a digital audio network but, it allows for antennas to be as remote as required.

As for the descriptions of "network layers" I'm rather fond of chocolate layer cake....

Yes but these are DECT band..

[Cameron Stuckey]

Im not looking to plug an LPDA or a Helical right into my Cisco SG300 with POE. (really yes I am) Of course there would need to be an interface. But if this is an ANALOG to light conversion as Pete states, Why cant that conversion be digitized and transported as such?! Then be amplified/ rectified on the back-end somewhere

Am I Crazy?!

You're not crazy, what you're referring to exists in military/espionage/aerospace applications. But your price point does make you nuts.

[Benjamin Krumholz]

You're not crazy, what you're referring to exists in military/espionage/aerospace applications. But your price point does make your nuts.

Ha! Thanks for the confirmation. ..

[Tim McCulloch]

Ha! Thanks for the confirmation. ..

Uh... we don't have to kill you, but you have an appointment with our doctor, who will administer an injection....  <evil laugh, echos>

There's nothing like doing a week of work for a division of the Five Sided Building and being summoned before the Colonel.  "You guys saw and heard things that weren't for your level of clearance.  You are ordered to have seen and heard nothing."  "Yes, Colonel!"  It kind of gave me a Hogan's Heros sort of feeling...

[Benjamin Krumholz]

There's nothing like doing a week of work for a division of the Five Sided Building and being summoned before the Colonel.  "You guys saw and heard things that weren't for your level of clearance.  You are ordered to have seen and heard nothing."  "Yes, Colonel!"  It kind of gave me a Hogan's Heros sort of feeling...

Funny, I was about to mention Tom Delange from Blink 182.. He seems to have some high end clearances.. If he is planning to shoot cube sats into orbit with a laser, why cant i get a god damn UHF IP antenna system..

[Keith Broughton]

Yes but these are DECT band..

Yes, I understand the are DECT band. I was not suggesting this as a solution.
I was simply referring to a device that does use a remote antenna over a digital network.
That would be the "something like this" reference.

[Scott Holtzman]

Yes, I understand the are DECT band. I was not suggesting this as a solution.
I was simply referring to a device that does use a remote antenna over a digital network.
That would be the "something like this" reference.

There is an important distinction with the DECT system.  An RF AP contains a receiver and a demodulator.  The recovered data is then transmitted over the packet network.

You can't take an analog sample of the complex waveform and recover it intact over the packet network.  Look how complex it is to transport audio over packet and create it back at the other end.

The RF signals have much wider bandwidth and are far more complex.   

[Mac Kerr]

The closest I have seen to "something like this" is the Shure Microflex wireless conference system.
The "antenna" is actually a Dante network device that acts as a receive antenna and can also transmit changes to the wireless mics.
Yes, it does operate on a digital audio network but, it allows for antennas to be as remote as required.

Yes but these are DECT band..

They don't relate to the original question because the "antenna" is really an 8ch transceiver that only passes digital audio over the network, like Freespeak, Bolero, and Romeo do in the comms world. There is no "RF" over IP.

Mac

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

I'm wondering if it would not be possible with a Layer-2 protocol on a GBe-1 or GBe-10 network but I think the throughput might be quite limited.

Using the Nyquist theorem you would probably need a sample rate at 1GHz for 500MHz and down with the usual 24-bit dither process. Hmmm so not you would need in the range of 30-50Gb of throughput for 1 line never kind the FPGA processing power to handle switching at those speeds.

I don't see this working very easily on a copper line, maybe CAT7 and that would still only be in the lower UHF band which is fine since nearly the entire upper UHF band is illegal to use.

Sorry just thinking this through as I type. I don't think the FPGA technology is there to switch that kind of data rates just yet and although the copper might be there it would be prohibitively expensive to use.

Stick to RFoF or analogue gear.

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

[ProSoundWeb Community]