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Author Topic: New subwoofer recommendations  (Read 2252 times)

Mike Caldwell

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2017, 04:59:44 pm »

I was going guess around 1,800hz to cross into the highs, personally I would high pass the 10's a little higher since they have that double 12 box for lows.

Airline tickets for two, a weeks stay somewhere nice, dinner each night and I'll come there to set it for you!

Don T. Williams

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 06:13:36 pm »

The manual has little meaningful information however I draw your attention to the bracket on page 9.  I sincerely hope this is the bracket you are referring to and that this was engineered and properly attached to your structure.  You have 300lb of speaker in the air.  This is a life safety concern.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20160629/1467176790.pdf

Second here are the factory settings.  As pointed out, auto settings are not useful.  Your use of them does give a general indication you lack experience in setting up systems of this type.

You should clear your processors and start with these settings.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20170622/1498131467.pdf

All the above!  Scott is dead on with this advice.  The auto settings just never work correctly in my experience and do more harm than good.  If you can find someone with Smaart or other test gear with experience in equalizing rooms, that could be a very good investment.

Echoing the thoughts of others, it's not so much the gear but it's how its is set up and used.  The Beta3 may be better (or worse) than more well know brands of loudspeakers.  But any brand of speaker set and equalized wrong will not sound good.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 07:05:55 pm »

All the above!  Scott is dead on with this advice.  The auto settings just never work correctly in my experience and do more harm than good.  If you can find someone with Smaart or other test gear with experience in equalizing rooms, that could be a very good investment.

Echoing the thoughts of others, it's not so much the gear but it's how its is set up and used.  The Beta3 may be better (or worse) than more well know brands of loudspeakers.  But any brand of speaker set and equalized wrong will not sound good.

I also wanted to add that you came here with what you thought was a simple question regarding subwoofers and have received a heap of unsolicited advice.  I am sure you are questioning long held beliefs and the groups sanity all at once.

There are many forums that will give you slip shot advice and emotional confirmation of an idea.  This isn't one of them.  The folks advising you are industry veterans with decades of experience.   This is hard one advice.  As one of the least experienced voices in this thread I implore you to avail yourself of the advice and get back on track.  It's simply not good stewardship to go about spending the churches money without a proper design.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 03:21:19 am »

So thank you all for your input. I have learnt a lot so far!
I’ll be perfectly frank with you. I came here to learn. My background is studio commercial recording, not live sound. And I did not set up the church system, but we did have several professionals who helped.
The change-around of the auditorium and the partial set-up of the sound system was down to the wire before the Sunday service. To make it worse, one of the Driveracks died and a 360 model was borrowed at the 11th hour to replace the “dead” 260 model.
All in all, the system needs setting up properly from scratch.

I am an Elder and am trying to help the congregation while I try to get a handle on what has been done so far and why; and why it is not sounding good and how it can be sorted.
Today I went into the auditorium and took some photos and had a better look at what we have and it appears that I may not have accurately remembered all the details.
Today I talked to the person who sold us the speakers and advised on how they us set similar systems up when they hire them out for gigs and concerts.

From listening to all you guys, I don’t think the floor subs are the problem. From collecting all the various bits of opinion and fact together, I believe that we should first concentrate on getting the overhead speakers working together in the best possible manner.

To help all you friendly long-distance advisers, I have put together a pdf with photos and all the bits of information I have gathered. To Mike Caldwell, maybe if you lived in Australia I would fly you out and you would seriously love our beautiful country, but perhaps I’ll decline at the moment since I’m assuming you live in the States.
About the Mechanical Engineer. Yes it was approved by a certified Engineer and the local authority has approved it.
As to why we opted for the driverack unit over the manufacturers unit. We bought the speakers as a unit second-hand and there was no manufacturer’s Xover unit with them. We followed the advice of the one who advised us.

So here goes. Round 2.
A) I learned today that our second Driverack 260 can’t be fixed, so we are either going to have to buy another one the same or do something else totally different.
B) For a start, I do not understand why we can’t do a 3 or 4 way Crossover with the flying speakers and not the complicated way it is set-up? (read the pdf and see if you can work it out) One of the Engineers who helped to set it up (he lives 1000 kilometres away) said that according to his calculations with the room dimensions, and the throw we needed ,we should not link the TLA’s together.
(By the way, the auditorium is 22 metres or 72 feet from speakers to rear wall and it is 17 metres wide or 56 feet seating about 350 people. The sound desk is 15 metres or 49 feet from the speakers)
C) It would appear that our floor subs might be OK, but I suspect that because of the last-minute set-up of audio along with builders, painters, visuals and everything else tripping over each other, no delay has been programmed into the driverack and the floor subs are filling the room with out of phase frequencies.

I take on board what several of you have said about getting in professional people.  So now I am trying to up my knowledge level to work out where to go for the next step.
All constructive thoughts are helpful and appreciated.

ps just found out you can't attach a pdf so have to rethink getting the info. to you.
Right so here is some of it.
What the audio engineer said.

The TLBs have a very flat frequency response between 50Hz and 250Hz.
The last install I did with the B3 system (in a smaller space than yours however), we had ground subs at 28-60hz, TLBs at 55-225hz, TLA mids at 220-2khz, and TLA tops at 2khz-19khz.
These are usually my pre-configured settings too for when we hire out our system and it's a pretty good starting point.
We have also successfully used the TLB speakers as the sole subs for a few events also and they have performed beautifully, however that has always been as a ground stacked installation. But that does give me an idea on how effective they could be once you find the sweet spot for them amongst the rest of the environment.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:50:30 pm by Wayne Garton »
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Wayne

Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 03:22:40 am »

And
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Wayne

Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 03:23:54 am »

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Wayne

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 03:56:50 am »

I am sincerely worried about none of those amps being matching.

Start with the advice up above, set the processor settings to the manufacturer's recommended settings, if the phase tracers are correct in the documents there shouldn't be much issues. I think follow the manufacturer's specs for the TLBs as well and don't delay either one at all relative to the other it seems pretty phase coherent but I cannot guarantee anything since literally I have never even heard of these speakers. I seriously doubt that the TLB's phase response is anything like what the manual says it is purely because physics but let's start at the base until you can get someone out there with a smaart rig to do some actual measurements.

I would low pass the ground subs at 100Hz and High pass them at 40 Hz.

With the ground stack subs make sure they are the same level as the flown subs IN THE BACK ROW OF THE AUDITORIUM, send a 100Hz sine wave to both and then phase invert the ground stack subs, IN THE BACK ROW OF THE AUDITORIUM add delay to the ground stack subs until there is maximum cancellation, you can use a laser measure on both the flown and ground stack to get you in the ballpark then just fine tune from there(you measure the distance and then divide it by the speed of sound to get seconds then subtract the two times from each other the ground stack subs should be a lower number), when that is done undo the phase inversion on the ground stack subs but leave the delay where you set it, you should now have a noticeable bump in the low frequency response. Play your favorite test music and have a listen front to back, hopefully there shouldn't be too much buildup up front and there should be enough low end.

That should give you serviceable results as long as all the assumptions I made is correct which is a lot and I honestly cannot even think that you will be able to align the rig without smaart. You literally cannot align that system without knowing exactly what the phase response is doing and I wouldn't trust the measurements I am seeing from the manufacturer but I hope you at least find that better.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 04:01:45 am by Jean-Pierre Coetzee »
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Word & Life Church

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2017, 07:46:05 am »

, TLA mids at 220-2khz, and TLA tops at 2khz-19khz.

The simple fact that they are using full range cabinets and dividing the freq up as you say, is GOOD REASON TO RUN from them and their ideas as fast as you can.

They don't have a basic understanding of what they have installed, how it is supposed to work etc.

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2017, 04:02:15 pm »

The simple fact that they are using full range cabinets and dividing the freq up as you say, is GOOD REASON TO RUN from them and their ideas as fast as you can.

They don't have a basic understanding of what they have installed, how it is supposed to work etc.
OK
One more picture
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Wayne

Ivan Beaver

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2017, 04:59:30 pm »

OK
One more picture
I stand behind my comment-no matter the size of the venue.

They are simply not using the cabinets as intended, and no amount of "special sauce" will fix that.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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