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Author Topic: New subwoofer recommendations  (Read 2253 times)

Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2017, 08:57:18 pm »

There is a company out of China called Beta3 that has "TL" series "line array" loudspeakers listed on their web site. Are these what you have?  If this is your system it is a vertical array.  A line array really need some length (many, many more loudspeakers than you have) and a minimal curve to act as a line array.  The forum has a lot of information on line arrays and all the incorrectly marketed loudspeakers called "line arrays" that are really vertical arrays.
Thanks. That'll be what they are. They are mounted up high one above the other in a special bracket that angles them down
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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2017, 09:00:45 pm »

It is not a matter of the sound "being absorbed" by the first rows.

It is simply inverse square law.  The people up front are closer, so it is louder to them.

If the levels are set for those people, then it will be quieter in the rear.  Basic physics.

When you fly the subs, the distance to the rear seats doesn't change much (not enough to be considered) so the inverse square looses don't change.

HOWEVER, the distance to the front rows changes quite a bit,  so inverse square reduces the levels to those seats.

So the ratio of front to rear seats is less when flown than when on the ground.

It is the ratio that is important.  The greater the ratio of distance, the greater the difference in level.  Not so much the actual distance.

The SPL difference between 1 and 2 feet is the same as between 100 and 200 feet.
OK, that makes sense
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2017, 09:09:48 pm »

Yes. You are correct. They are Chinese made (as are many other items we buy in NZ from toasters to iPhones to cars) This is not the USA. We do what we can.
TLA http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=283 (X2 on each side)
TLB http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=49 (X1 on each side)
vertically hung like the example shown on this page
http://www.beta3pro.com/caseshow.php?cid=41&id=344
While they are not mainstream or well-known like JBL, we have seen them used at a large "ColdPlay" outdoor concert in Auckland, NZ so they can't be incredibly bad.
However, since we have recently changed the orientation of the auditorium setup from landscape to portrait, (turned the seating around and constructed a stage) and have just bought the speakers pre-owned, we won't be buying new ones any time soon.
We have a Soundcraft Expression SI 3 mixer and the output of this is fed to the 2 Driverack 260's which are used as X-overs for the speakers. Each Driverack has 6 outputs mono or 3 stereo pairs. These then feed the amplifiers for the speakers.
However the old subwoofers for kick and bottom end were not replaced. They are mounted directly under the vertical arrays and physically under the new stage. But it is not working. In order for a reasonable level of kick halfway down our (now longer) auditorium, it is excessively loud at the front.
I feel that some of you experienced sound guys might have some words of wisdom for us.
(If I did it correctly, there should be a picture of the auditorium attached)

The problem is not that they are Chinese, it's that line array's have to be much longer than 2 elements to do anything.  You also don't have any processing for them other than crossovers.  Line array's from mainstream vendors have processing and prediction software to go with them so you can set them up properly.  To top it off you have a pair of 12" mid-sub's flown and phase issues in the unprocessed cross over region between the two line arrays and the one double 12. 

With the money you spent on these, if you had asked before you spent the money, you could have purchased some quality point source boxes and deployed them properly.

That room looks to have enough trim height to support a proper array (think 6-8ft) and that would allow you to properly deploy and align the system.  Some here would argue you could still do a better job with point source, I am not going to go down that road.

You didn't ask us about the tops so leaving that all aside you need some new subwoofers.  The flown 12's aren't doing sub duty and I assume they are crossed over to make up for the anemic low end response of the short line.  That's what you are going to have to live with. 

So what's your budget for the subs and what vendors can you source local?  For the type of music and size of the venue you need 4 average or 2 terrific double 18 cabinets.  The dollars are about the same.  With amplification figure 12k in the US.

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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2017, 09:10:21 pm »


>>What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?


the 2 Driverack 260's are used as X-overs for the speakers. Each Driverack has 6 outputs mono or 3 stereo pairs, so we need 2 of them to have enough XOvers for the speakers. All the speakers are driven from the main mix
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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2017, 09:25:07 pm »


You didn't ask us about the tops so leaving that all aside you need some new subwoofers.  The flown 12's aren't doing sub duty and I assume they are crossed over to make up for the anemic low end response of the short line.  That's what you are going to have to live with. 

So what's your budget for the subs and what vendors can you source local?  For the type of music and size of the venue you need 4 average or 2 terrific double 18 cabinets.  The dollars are about the same.  With amplification figure 12k in the US.

We can't buy anything locally, but from Auckland (100 miles away) we could buy JBL EV Yamaha etc. from reputable companies.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:46:01 pm by Wayne Garton »
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2017, 11:53:45 pm »

In your post you said your have 1 Beta TLB per side double 18 per side and if I read it correctly you also have two homemade subs as well.
I have never heard of "Beta" speakers and I' not going to speculate
on how they work and sound same goes for the quality of the homemade sub mentioned (not that is anything wrong with a properly designed and built homemade sub!) A big problem could be that the two types of subs are just not happy working together.

What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?

When I first searched and looked up the Beta TLB I thought you had the double 18 version not a double 12.

All other fancy processing aside, where are you crossing over between all of your cabinets, the high pass and low pass of each.

Maybe think about re-configuring the main system as stereo three way and then running the subs you have as aux fed.
That in itself would not be a magic fix for your problem but it most likely would help clean up the overall sound.


« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:57:15 pm by Mike Caldwell »
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Wayne Garton

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2017, 02:45:25 am »

When I first searched and looked up the Beta TLB I thought you had the double 18 version not a double 12.

All other fancy processing aside, where are you crossing over between all of your cabinets, the high pass and low pass of each.

Maybe think about re-configuring the main system as stereo three way and then running the subs you have as aux fed.
That in itself would not be a magic fix for your problem but it most likely would help clean up the overall sound.
I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2017, 04:35:11 am »

I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.
This makes me think your in over your head, no offence meant you can learn a lot here but correctly aligning and processing a loudspeaker system is not a matter of using the auto eq settings.

Honestly you need to get someone out there with a proper smaart rig and have them sort out the system for you. You will then know if you actually need more low end, you probably do and I can tell you you can get decent results but to fly subwoofers is not a small task for an in-house engineer.

Expect to pay a structural engineer to sign off on your hang points and weights as well as a rigging team to come and rig it to the structural engineers specifications.

After that you would be looking at quite expensive sub's to be able to fly them, other might have some input in the price range you can look at.

1. Is the 18kUSD per sub or for a complete set?

2. Do you understand the tradeoffs between a LR stack and a centre cardiod stack or even LR cardiod stacks if you have the budget for that?

I still think get a local integrator or consultant in to come and discuss your options with you and then come back and double check everything with everyone here.

We are more then willing to help and just don't want you to get suboptimal results.

3. Are the mains bi-amped/tri-amped or passively crossed over?

EDIT:

Your links that you posted has a user manual, there the manufacturer recommends one of their processors to do the 2-way crossover in the top boxes, why did you guys opt for the driverack unit over the manufacturers unit?

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:00:12 am by Jean-Pierre Coetzee »
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2017, 09:35:00 am »

I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.

Forget about using the auto EQ, if you have tried to use it maybe it has added a lot of sub / low end boost that is contributing to your problem. Auto EQ can tend add boost to areas where your don't really need it.

Run the main system three way stereo, your flown double 12 low boxes with the mid and highs in the "line array" all from one DBX 260.
Use the 2nd DBX 260 to process your subs and run them from an aux out.

I could not find any suggested processor settings for your "line array" boxes.

How did you set up the 260's and to what guidelines?

My gut feeling is that even with just some generic crossover points for the given components in your system, flatten out what the auto EQ has tried to do, balance the general levels between the band passes and do a quick ring out EQ with a mic your system would be better sounding than it is now.

Your system for better or worse is not really that complex as it is now, with just two of the TLA boxes per side they are not a line array. With some basic proper dsp settings it would sound better than it has in a long time if not ever, at least that's my take on it from 8000 miles away.

 

Scott Holtzman

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Re: New subwoofer recommendations
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2017, 01:19:24 pm »

Thanks. That'll be what they are. They are mounted up high one above the other in a special bracket that angles them down

The manual has little meaningful information however I draw your attention to the bracket on page 9.  I sincerely hope this is the bracket you are referring to and that this was engineered and properly attached to your structure.  You have 300lb of speaker in the air.  This is a life safety concern.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20160629/1467176790.pdf

Second here are the factory settings.  As pointed out, auto settings are not useful.  Your use of them does give a general indication you lack experience in setting up systems of this type.

You should clear your processors and start with these settings.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20170622/1498131467.pdf
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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