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[Adam Ellsworth]

So... people near me are gonna figure this out pretty quick, but hopefully they'll ignore it.

I've been working with a newly-built venue for almost 4 years as a contract sound provider... we provide all gear and techs on a per-event charge but much of the gear is semi-permanently installed. It should be a good arrangement and this venue provides more than half of my entire business.

We primarily do concerts and that goes very smoothly as I work directly with the concert promoter. We can do those all day long. But the venue also hosts some corporate events/meetings/presentations where I work directly with the venue owner who is between me and the event organizer. Or rather, the venue owner doesn't work with me. I frequently either don't find out about events until a day or two beforehand by accident... or the event requirements are collected from the client but not shared with me at all.

Most recently I was led to believe an event simply needed a podium mic and a projector... the night before the event I discovered they needed 2 countryman mics, 2 handhelds, several power points and even some light cues. The client says this was advanced weeks ago and I'm often in a difficult position where I have to be professional and rush to make the event happen while not completely throwing the venue under the bus. I suspect I'm being occasionally thrown under the bus for things I was never asked to do, although clients figure out pretty fast where the problem is.

At times I Google the event to find contact information and basically "cold call" the organizer simply to get event requirements to prevent a literal last-minute emergency. That's madness. I've tried to address this with the owner multiple times, and he's always in complete agreement. We come up with a plan for better coordination... but then the next event goes exactly the same way and he acts like this was a one-time problem.

I'm afraid nothing will change until I let an event fail, and I just can't do that to an innocent 3rd party. But what else can I do? Is this pretty much how it goes everywhere?

[John Ferreira]

Adam if you have a contract with details, most of these problems would not occur.

[Riley Casey]

No such thing as troublesome clients, only clients who provide up charge opportunities.  Charge by the event line iteming everything you provide or increase your flat rate to cover the added time and expense.  One way or the other the client either gets it or pays for the privlige of continuing to be uncommunicative

[Bob Faulkner]

Part of the reason your client may be doing these things is how they (the client) see you.  If they see you as a buddy/friend/co-worker/a fix-all/etc... they are going to treat you differently than if they see you as a vendor/contractor/provider.

As mentioned before, a contract outlining the services YOU will provide would eliminate nearly all of the issues you have described.  Maintaining professionalism in managing issues/problems is a big benefit for you, however, some clients will expect others to manage issues that they are supposed to be managing.  When clients do this, they are spreading their risk onto others (i.e. you) to manage an ultimately you will be responsible for. 

[David Allred]

... all the while, remembering that they provide 1/2 of your business load.
Does this owner have a secretary, a manager, a scheduler, an accountant, etc?
If so, "sell" the owner that it would take the "very time consuming task" off his plate and onto an underling's.

Are you flat-fee'd whether it is a podium mic vs 6 mics and 2 projectors?  2 hrs vs 8 hrs?

[Yoel Farkas]

It might be a good idea to have a online managing/scheduler program. where the owner enters the information of the event including client contact info.

I have been using Smartsheet successfully. there are other programs, but i find smartsheet to be the most flexible.

enjoy

[Adam Ellsworth]

After I wrote this I kinda expected a brief flame war about running a business - but all combined these comments do give me some possible things to try so I really appreciate it. I love the venue and the events (and the business) so it's worth the effort, just frustrated with the effort.

It might be a good idea to have a online managing/scheduler program. where the owner enters the information of the event including client contact info.

He does at least put things in Google Calendar and I have access to that or it would be impossible, but he won't put any details other than event name or even abbreviation. I even offer to attend meetings with clients to help manage and even upsell for him but I've never received a heads-up unless it's a final walk-through where I'm actually hearing the plan for the first time instead of finishing touches.

Does this owner have a secretary, a manager, a scheduler, an accountant, etc?
Are you flat-fee'd whether it is a podium mic vs 6 mics and 2 projectors?  2 hrs vs 8 hrs?

He has lost all of those people. It's literally a two-person operation now (owner and ass't manager) in a beautiful venue. He does not like to delegate tasks but isn't good at completing tasks either which is a bad combination. As you might expect, the building is for sale but we've been in a holding pattern for almost a year now and events continue... in fact business has picked up.

I am flat-fee'd within certain parameters/event types which I did to try to make it easier for him to quote clients. But I'm not bound by that and this thread has empowered me to get more aggressive in invoicing him for every overage regardless how small it seems, especially when requested late.

Part of the reason your client may be doing these things is how they (the client) see you.  If they see you as a buddy/friend/co-worker/a fix-all/etc... they are going to treat you differently than if they see you as a vendor/contractor/provider.

Bingo... This is really insightful and probably the core of the problem. We did know each other before doing business and early in the process I helped with many more things than I should have. I know this now and have been trying to "tighten it up" but instead of becoming more professional or formal, I think I'm just getting impatient and cranky. I need to transition more to a straight vendor role.

No such thing as troublesome clients, only clients who provide up charge opportunities. Charge by the event line iteming everything you provide or increase your flat rate to cover the added time and expense.  One way or the other the client either gets it or pays for the privlige of continuing to be uncommunicative

I've tried this in the past, but I think it's time to get serious about it and stick to it.

Adam if you have a contract with details, most of these problems would not occur.

Enforcement is my biggest dilemma because we both have decent leverage. Legally I'm clearly meeting or exceeding what I'm promising to do. But if he's not keeping his end of the bargain all I can really do is terminate the contract. We'd both lose in that situation. That is where I started to feel stuck. It's unlikely any other suitable provider would take this gig so he does need me, but it's also squarely in my niche in a very small market so I can't really bail either unless I decide it's no longer financially viable and I would likely lose most of my staff.

... but we're not there yet. I'm going to try the above suggestions and see if I can steer my little corner of the ship at least.

[Ray Aberle]

This venue owner thinks he has an in-house AV service (think PSAV and the like) but doesn't want to pay for the full time commitment that having an in-house AV service would entail. End of story.

Think about it from the other angle: If a hotel (catering & banquet salesperson) books a show, and collects all of the information and doesn't give it to PSAV, what happens? PSAV dude shows up show day, and is like "Here's the SM58 you ordered." If they're gracious enough to dig into the situation and make sure the client is taken care of, you can be damn certain the PSAV bill to the hotel is going to include rush production charges, OT labor, etc etc. I would presume the hotel eats those excess, since they're the ones who screwed up, not the client. If PSAV (rightfully) decides to be a dick about it, the client's pissed and the hotel hears about. "They got what YOU (the hotel) ordered," PSAV responds.

What to do, what to do...

I think you already know the first part: let the venue owner know that he needs to shape up. Here's the hypothetical question you ask him: "If your client needs something important, that is beyond what we normally have here, and I don't know to bring it for the show, it's not going to be here. Do you want to deal with a rightfully upset client who didn't get what they needed?"

For a PSAV/similar shop, there's going to be an office/whatever onsite with loads of extra gear "Just In Case." They can handle a majority of client needs/last minute onsite requests, and if they can't -- well, too bad for the client for not planning ahead! Unless you're looking to do that same at this venue, you need to get the venue owner on board.

Unfortunately, what might make this happen........ is a pissed-off client. You're not given the information you need. You deploy like normal. Client asks you for X, Y, whatever-- "Sorry, but that AV order wasn't placed." Client's mad, which is bad, but the repercussions to the venue owner might be enough of a shake up that he realises you know what the freak you're talking about. (Or he gets mad and fires you-- but then he might just see what true value you've been bringing to the table!)

-Ray

[Stephen Kirby]

How obvious is it to the corpy clients that you are an outsource service?  Everything has your company name/logo on it?  Cases, shirts, etc.  So when you approach the client at the set up with their copy (costs redacted) of the line item invoice for set up confirmation (who gets the lavs? confirming sightlines for the speakers listed, etc) then they'll know to take it out on the venue management if something's wrong.  If you look like you're part of the venue, there's no place to hide.

[Tim McCulloch]

This venue owner thinks he has an in-house AV service (think PSAV and the like) but doesn't want to pay for the full time commitment that having an in-house AV service would entail. End of story.

Think about it from the other angle: If a hotel (catering & banquet salesperson) books a show, and collects all of the information and doesn't give it to PSAV, what happens? PSAV dude shows up show day, and is like "Here's the SM58 you ordered." If they're gracious enough to dig into the situation and make sure the client is taken care of, you can be damn certain the PSAV bill to the hotel is going to include rush production charges, OT labor, etc etc. I would presume the hotel eats those excess, since they're the ones who screwed up, not the client. If PSAV (rightfully) decides to be a dick about it, the client's pissed and the hotel hears about. "They got what YOU (the hotel) ordered," PSAV responds.

What to do, what to do...

I think you already know the first part: let the venue owner know that he needs to shape up. Here's the hypothetical question you ask him: "If your client needs something important, that is beyond what we normally have here, and I don't know to bring it for the show, it's not going to be here. Do you want to deal with a rightfully upset client who didn't get what they needed?"

For a PSAV/similar shop, there's going to be an office/whatever onsite with loads of extra gear "Just In Case." They can handle a majority of client needs/last minute onsite requests, and if they can't -- well, too bad for the client for not planning ahead! Unless you're looking to do that same at this venue, you need to get the venue owner on board.

Unfortunately, what might make this happen........ is a pissed-off client. You're not given the information you need. You deploy like normal. Client asks you for X, Y, whatever-- "Sorry, but that AV order wasn't placed." Client's mad, which is bad, but the repercussions to the venue owner might be enough of a shake up that he realises you know what the freak you're talking about. (Or he gets mad and fires you-- but then he might just see what true value you've been bringing to the table!)

-Ray

The hotel commission on AV sales is 50% or more.  It's in the hotel's interest for the bill to be large.  If the client complains about a service received and the hotel gives a discount, that discount is 100% recoverable from the AV company.  The house does not lose.  Ever.  If the sales/catering office does not get the info to the AV office, the client is usually not billed for rush charges and neither is the hotel.  The house does not lose.  Ever.

[ProSoundWeb Community]