ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue  (Read 18275 times)

davidsavill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2017, 04:27:11 PM »

Thinking about...
* Labhorn
* Keystone w/ B&C100's
* Keystone w/ Lab12's

Since this is for a small venue I think the output of any of these will be more than enough.

So I am curious for those that might have had a chance to hear some or all of these which they would say has more musicality (very subjective I know) and which has the ability to punch lower (if at all) using 2 cabs. The music we get here is house/trance/techno on some nights, top100 in others, and 80's dance every now and then.


Logged

Mark Wilkinson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2017, 06:17:09 PM »

Thinking about...
* Labhorn
* Keystone w/ B&C100's
* Keystone w/ Lab12's

Since this is for a small venue I think the output of any of these will be more than enough.

So I am curious for those that might have had a chance to hear some or all of these which they would say has more musicality (very subjective I know) and which has the ability to punch lower (if at all) using 2 cabs. The music we get here is house/trance/techno on some nights, top100 in others, and 80's dance every now and then.

Hi David, i've already replied about labhorns...and if you'll search my posts I'm pretty sure i put up measurements for a pair outdoors.
No experience with keystones....

BUT,  probably not what you want to hear.... in the room you describe i would not build either.
I'd go with some vented direct subs, like ones that I also posted about......just get some great drivers....
You can go lower than either design you're considering with the right drivers/box, with a smoother freq response, and with all the power your room can ever stand. Plus, soooo much easier to build, other than figuring out a grill that won't rattle  ;D
 
As many a wise sound man has said, horses for courses......
Logged

davidsavill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2017, 09:48:53 PM »

Hi David, i've already replied about labhorns...and if you'll search my posts I'm pretty sure i put up measurements for a pair outdoors.
No experience with keystones....

BUT,  probably not what you want to hear.... in the room you describe i would not build either.
I'd go with some vented direct subs, like ones that I also posted about......just get some great drivers....
You can go lower than either design you're considering with the right drivers/box, with a smoother freq response, and with all the power your room can ever stand. Plus, soooo much easier to build, other than figuring out a grill that won't rattle  ;D
 
As many a wise sound man has said, horses for courses......

I hear you.... I have just always wanted to build a horn! :)

Mostly because (I have been told) the quality of the bass they produce is quite a bit better.
 
Logged

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2203
  • Santa Fe, New Mexico
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 12:10:21 PM »

Thinking about...
* Labhorn
* Keystone w/ B&C100's
* Keystone w/ Lab12's

Since this is for a small venue I think the output of any of these will be more than enough.

So I am curious for those that might have had a chance to hear some or all of these which they would say has more musicality (very subjective I know) and which has the ability to punch lower (if at all) using 2 cabs. The music we get here is house/trance/techno on some nights, top100 in others, and 80's dance every now and then.
David,
I have not actually heard LAB horns, but going from measurements, they go a few Hz lower than the Keystone, but are almost twice the size, double the depth and probably at least twice the work to build.
There is very little music where you would notice the slight difference in the low corner between the two. Both have a similar upward rise in response, giving the usual "punch" associated with horns compared to classic "flat response" ported cabinets. The rest of the "punch" is due to the higher output the horn is capable with the same power compared to ported cabinets.

Using the LAB 12 drivers in each, the LAB horn could probably go 3-4 dB louder initially compared to the Keystone, though by the end of a set the power compression from the trapped heat in the small compression chamber would make the difference less- probably as little as 2 dB. In a small room, the difference between 130 and 128 dB probably won't be noticed..

Using the B&C TBW100-4 in the Keystone I'd expect the output to be similar to the LAB horn due to the additional linear excursion and better thermal ability.

As far as going with ported cabinets, that would work fine if you want to buy twice the drivers and amplification to achieve the same SPL.

Art



Logged

Marjan Milosevic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
    • MM-acoustics
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 03:54:50 PM »

Art, we made some A/B tests between a tapped horn inspired by the TH118 and a double 18 reflex box.
Same boxes used same 18 inch drivers. Basically the one that was in the first TH118 boxes.
What we concluded is that 2x18 reflex box went both louder and lower.
Sure, double the power, but SPL difference was very noticeable. Lower extension was not so much, but we did measured few Hz lower cutoof.

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2203
  • Santa Fe, New Mexico
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 08:10:09 PM »

Art, we made some A/B tests between a tapped horn inspired by the TH118 and a double 18 reflex box.
Same boxes used same 18 inch drivers. Basically the one that was in the first TH118 boxes.
What we concluded is that 2x18 reflex box went both louder and lower.
Sure, double the power, but SPL difference was very noticeable. Lower extension was not so much, but we did measured few Hz lower cutoof.
Marjan,

My A/B test results copied in post #26 using the BC18SW115-4 in a BR carefully tuned to the same low corner as the Keystone shows the Keystone +5dB at 40 Hz, +8dB at 100Hz, an average of +6 dB over the passband at the same drive level.
Two of the BRs would be much larger than one Keystone, yet would only have +1 dB at 40 Hz (which would be negated by port compression at high power) and less upper output, requiring twice the drivers and power.

PASC reported the Keystone had about 2 dB more output than a TH "inspired" by the TH118 ;^).

Cheers,
Art

Logged

Mark Wilkinson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1104
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2017, 07:24:39 PM »

I hear you.... I have just always wanted to build a horn! :)

Mostly because (I have been told) the quality of the bass they produce is quite a bit better.

Yes, I'm all for getting what we want !!
Don't think you can lose with either horn build.

And I wouldn't worry about thermal compression on the labhorns, if you're leaning that way.
I kinda think thermal compression turned in to urban legend when folks were pushing them too hard,
....cause they stayed sounding clean past SPL levels previously heard...so ...folks pushed em even harder than they're meant to go, duh! ....lol.

But...when it comes to bass quality....OK, now Im walking into Neverland....
To my ears, a really righteous BR sounds better than a horn loaded.
By really righteous, I mean being driven to levels that keep THD low.
Which means more boxes, more amps....the inevitable tradeoffs.
I mean damn, best would be sealed boxes if you really want SQ !

There's something about the immediacy of a driver coupling to air, without going through a horn, that can be both felt and heard.
It's like a texture to the bass...I dunno... like I said, Neverland...





Logged

davidsavill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2017, 06:49:10 PM »

David,
I have not actually heard LAB horns, but going from measurements, they go a few Hz lower than the Keystone, but are almost twice the size, double the depth and probably at least twice the work to build.
There is very little music where you would notice the slight difference in the low corner between the two. Both have a similar upward rise in response, giving the usual "punch" associated with horns compared to classic "flat response" ported cabinets. The rest of the "punch" is due to the higher output the horn is capable with the same power compared to ported cabinets.

Using the LAB 12 drivers in each, the LAB horn could probably go 3-4 dB louder initially compared to the Keystone, though by the end of a set the power compression from the trapped heat in the small compression chamber would make the difference less- probably as little as 2 dB. In a small room, the difference between 130 and 128 dB probably won't be noticed..

Using the B&C TBW100-4 in the Keystone I'd expect the output to be similar to the LAB horn due to the additional linear excursion and better thermal ability.

As far as going with ported cabinets, that would work fine if you want to buy twice the drivers and amplification to achieve the same SPL.

Art

Interesting I would have thought the Keystone would be better lower than the LabHorn with the 18" driver. But I guess the larger cabinet makes the difference there.

Which of the two would have a lower delay applied to sync it with the rest of the PA?

Logged

davidsavill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2017, 06:56:08 PM »

Marjan,

My A/B test results copied in post #26 using the BC18SW115-4 in a BR carefully tuned to the same low corner as the Keystone shows the Keystone +5dB at 40 Hz, +8dB at 100Hz, an average of +6 dB over the passband at the same drive level.
Two of the BRs would be much larger than one Keystone, yet would only have +1 dB at 40 Hz (which would be negated by port compression at high power) and less upper output, requiring twice the drivers and power.

PASC reported the Keystone had about 2 dB more output than a TH "inspired" by the TH118 ;^).

Cheers,
Art

Have looked at the TH18 of course, what about down at 30Hz?
Logged

Art Welter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2203
  • Santa Fe, New Mexico
Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2017, 02:34:44 PM »

Interesting I would have thought the Keystone would be better lower than the LabHorn with the 18" driver. But I guess the larger cabinet makes the difference there.

Which of the two would have a lower delay applied to sync it with the rest of the PA?
Driver size has nothing to do with frequency response.
Delay is applied to the top cabinets to account for the horn path length.
The LAB Horn has a slightly longer path length than the Keystone, but the cabinet is deeper, so the tops would be delayed by roughly the same length to align with either.

As far as the Keystone at 30 Hz, it drops below 40 Hz, Fb is around 35 Hz, so can be take plenty of EQ there, but the rolloff is quite steep, so don't expect much below Fb.
If you want the lower response, you can reduce the mouth size, and trade upper response for LF extension.

The Keystone B-Low cabinets I just built have a separate "step down" cover plate that reduces the exit for the gigs I may want to trade upper for lower response, though I doubt the covers will get much use.

Art
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Suitability of 2 LABs for a smallish venue
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2017, 02:34:44 PM »


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.037 seconds with 24 queries.