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Author Topic: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged  (Read 10354 times)

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2017, 01:30:35 am »

(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted. 
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2017, 06:02:06 am »

(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted.

Robert, 
If you can get someone at the church to listen to you and perhaps talk to other churches who have successfully integrated audio into a gym space you will find that the church needs to be talking to a consultant or a design-build company that specializes in professional sound reinforcement and that has successfully designed/integrated gym spaces.

The speakers and amplifier that were quoted to you are consumer, not professional grade and they are not suitable for the use that you have outlined. 

The speakers quoted will not be capable of getting loud enough to be used in a gym for typical sports level interactions/announcements.  They certainly would not get over 500 kids. 
Beyond that they lack pattern control and will, in my opinion, not help with voice intelligibility they will instead hurt voice intelligibility.  They will also, in the layout that you have described create a significant problem by not allowing enough gain before feedback.

Everything in sound reinforcement is about making compromises.  One of the first compromises in your gym is the gym.  Not the greatest acoustical space for spoken word intelligibility.  The acoustical challenges must be addressed by either treating the acoustical problems (not usually something a church or school will spend money on) or installing a sound system to try to minimize the worst of the problems created by the highly reverberant space.

In a highly reverberant space the best audio compromises for a sound system for speech intelligibility generally come from balancing a combination of specific wants.  Some of these wants are;
      Having as few sound sources (speakers) as possible in order to minimize additional sounds arriving at listeners at different/multiple times since multiple times of arrival decreases intelligibility.  You don't want multiple speakers covering a single person (as much as it can be avoided).
      Having each person covered by a speaker that is "close" to them.  This maximizes the relationship of the direct sound from the speaker getting to the listener before the reflections from the room get there.
      Having speakers that provide pattern control to as low a frequency as is practical given the other limitations of the project such as size restrictions, weight restrictions, budget restrictions, etc.

Not having a good idea of your specific gym layout, where seating typically is during sports uses, how that changes or is added to during events like VBS, etc., and also not knowing what your fire alarm system or assisted listening system requirements are it is hard for us to make specific recommendations. 

Your church really needs to talk to a local/regional company, consultant, or inspector who can talk to them about not just system needs but also code compliance requirements for things like fire alarm, seismic restraint (depending on where you are and where speakers will be mounted), and ADA.

Lee
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:04:20 am by Lee Buckalew »
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2017, 08:48:25 am »

Can I take a guess at something.  The guy proposing these "speakercraft" speakers....is he on whatever board is calling the shots?  or is it his friend? Here is a good article which seems applicable to your situation...http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

If a speaker falls from getting hit by a ball, your installer has serious problems.  Show your people this video....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d0NIqoIqBg



Also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_uscBJn0p0
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Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

Tim Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2017, 08:51:47 am »

I would approach the decision makers and ask if they have visited and auditioned another similar install by this company. Let the installer demonstrate why this is the best solution for you situation. My guess is they can't because they have never installed a system in a gym before.


Which begs the question to the decision makers in your Church. "Do we want to be the guinea pigs for this company that is reaching outside of their comfort zone?"
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Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2017, 10:06:30 am »

Robert, 
If you can get someone at the church to listen to you and perhaps talk to other churches who have successfully integrated audio into a gym space you will find that the church needs to be talking to a consultant or a design-build company that specializes in professional sound reinforcement and that has successfully designed/integrated gym spaces.

The speakers and amplifier that were quoted to you are consumer, not professional grade and they are not suitable for the use that you have outlined. 

The speakers quoted will not be capable of getting loud enough to be used in a gym for typical sports level interactions/announcements.  They certainly would not get over 500 kids. 
Beyond that they lack pattern control and will, in my opinion, not help with voice intelligibility they will instead hurt voice intelligibility.  They will also, in the layout that you have described create a significant problem by not allowing enough gain before feedback.

Everything in sound reinforcement is about making compromises.  One of the first compromises in your gym is the gym.  Not the greatest acoustical space for spoken word intelligibility.  The acoustical challenges must be addressed by either treating the acoustical problems (not usually something a church or school will spend money on) or installing a sound system to try to minimize the worst of the problems created by the highly reverberant space.

In a highly reverberant space the best audio compromises for a sound system for speech intelligibility generally come from balancing a combination of specific wants.  Some of these wants are;
      Having as few sound sources (speakers) as possible in order to minimize additional sounds arriving at listeners at different/multiple times since multiple times of arrival decreases intelligibility.  You don't want multiple speakers covering a single person (as much as it can be avoided).
      Having each person covered by a speaker that is "close" to them.  This maximizes the relationship of the direct sound from the speaker getting to the listener before the reflections from the room get there.
      Having speakers that provide pattern control to as low a frequency as is practical given the other limitations of the project such as size restrictions, weight restrictions, budget restrictions, etc.

Not having a good idea of your specific gym layout, where seating typically is during sports uses, how that changes or is added to during events like VBS, etc., and also not knowing what your fire alarm system or assisted listening system requirements are it is hard for us to make specific recommendations. 

Your church really needs to talk to a local/regional company, consultant, or inspector who can talk to them about not just system needs but also code compliance requirements for things like fire alarm, seismic restraint (depending on where you are and where speakers will be mounted), and ADA.

Lee

We just spent $100K to pave our parking lot.  We used the top contractor in the area.  We also just spent $100K to redo all of our bathrooms.  It was a major upgrade compared to what we had.  For some reason we want to skimp on something that you really shouldnít.  Iím going to bring that up.  Also this gym is our backup auditorium in the event our main auditorium is unusable.  We have had to do this before. 

Iím actually considering recommending using Iconyx.  We could still mount on the back wall like they want.  I donít really have a problem coming up with recommendations as I have a good idea of what will work and what wonít.  I know who to call and get a hold of for these projects. 

This project was given to someone who keeps telling me he knows nothing about sound.  I keep reminding him Iíve been doing the sound at the church for over 13 years.  I do all the upgrades to our system and configurations and installs aside from hanging speakers.  In the 13 years Iíve studied and researched audio extensively.  It seems like it falls on deaf ears.  Itís really the mentality of ďIíve just got to have something before next VBSĒ.  They think itís going to be better.  However the current Yamaha SM101s we have been using would still blow those speakercrafts away.  Iíve been trying to tell them this.   
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2017, 11:52:02 am »

Yes, however I'm am the audio expert in the church. 13 years experience.  I've kind of been left out of this whole process.  I've butted into this project knowing that I'm the one the ultimately going to be looked at to fix the problem.
Robert,

The reason that I asked the question that I did is that you might have to "take a stand." Go to the church / 'whomever is leaving you out of this process' group, and state:
- These speakers are not going to suffice for this space
- The company proposing this system is not qualified to install speakers into our space (if this is, in fact, true)
- The end result is going to sound BAD. NOTHING I (you) can do on the board side will fix it.
- This is a poor use of our fiscal resources, and we are not being good stewards of the money to spend it in this manner
and finally...
- "I cannot support this decision, and if you choose to move forward, I will be stepping down as the audio lead for the church."

You do not want to be in a position where you're being blamed for this poor decision (and you know you will)! You absolutely need to make it clear that your participation will end should they put you in a position where you're going to be criticized constantly for something that is not your fault!

I would approach the decision makers and ask if they have visited and auditioned another similar install by this company. Let the installer demonstrate why this is the best solution for you situation. My guess is they can't because they have never installed a system in a gym before.

Which begs the question to the decision makers in your Church. "Do we want to be the guinea pigs for this company that is reaching outside of their comfort zone?"
I don't have a problem with being a guinea pig for someone... as long as it is clear from the beginning that this is the case. "This is new territory for us, so let's work and learn and grow together on this project. We'll do it at cost, because we're learning." But if they're making it sound like they have years of experience doing something, and it turns out they don't (and things end badly) then I would be irritated.

-Ray "Bein' Blunt" Aberle
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2017, 04:20:44 pm »


Iím actually considering recommending using Iconyx.  We could still mount on the back wall like they want.  I donít really have a problem coming up with recommendations as I have a good idea of what will work and what wonít.  I know who to call and get a hold of for these projects. 


Once you are talking about that price range there are a number of viable options choosing the best one will depend on your specific goals which should be laid out ahead of time. 
I encourage you to work with someone who will model and/or demo for you what specific solutions would be like.  Don't fall into the trap of just listening to playback since you will also use this live.  Hook up live mics and instruments during a demo and see how the system actually behaves live.

Lee
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Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2017, 01:49:26 pm »

Once you are talking about that price range there are a number of viable options choosing the best one will depend on your specific goals which should be laid out ahead of time. 
I encourage you to work with someone who will model and/or demo for you what specific solutions would be like.  Don't fall into the trap of just listening to playback since you will also use this live.  Hook up live mics and instruments during a demo and see how the system actually behaves live.

Lee

They are not really talking that price range yet.  It may just take spending $7500 on a defunct system for them to believe it's NOT actually going to work.   
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2017, 04:17:54 pm »

I agree with Ray.  Line it out for them.  Let them know in a timely fashion that, should their decision be impractical, unworkable, a waste of funds (poor stewardship) or all of these, you cannot be involved in implementing their (durn fool) plan.  Wish them the best, do a 180 and remove yourself from the position of scapegoat.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Gym speaker setup
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2017, 07:00:58 pm »

(4) EA-AMP-2D-150A - Amplifier
(8) ASM59101 - Speakers

These are the amps and speakers quoted.

I just did a quick search and looked up that amp and speakers.....WOW.
Those are so wrong for a gym sound system!!
I take it that is 4 amps and 8 speakers.

In addition to everything else that has been mentioned the first time one of those speakers gets nailed with a basketball the grill and maybe a driver will be caved in.

What else was quoted for a mixer, mics, processing, equipment rack, wall boxes or floor boxes for mic jacks.
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