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Author Topic: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218  (Read 1615 times)

Ash Priba

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Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« on: September 18, 2017, 07:55:45 pm »

Ivan,

The owners of the venue seems to be opening up to the idea of 2 x BC218 in the "eye" configuration, for lower extension and greater headroom vs 4 x TH118. See attached image.

This opens the field to an alternative solution, in the form of 2 x BC415.

----

Mon - Thurs, the music is likely to be more sedate (Lounge).

Fri - Sun, will be geared towards EDM.

----

Q1: Between 2 x BC218 and 2 x BC415 for our venue size of 70 x 35ft and max capacity of 450-500 people (incl mezzanine), where would you lean towards.

Q2: There was a question that with a packed room (450-500 people), the SH50 may be reaching its limits. Is this a concern?

Q3: Which top would best pair with the subwoofer you recommend above.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:01:45 pm by Ash Priba »
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 07:56:36 pm »

Why do you keep posting new threads?


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Ash Priba

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Re: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 08:05:15 pm »

Why do you keep posting new threads?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I considered continuing the old thread, but I figure the question is sufficiently different to warrant a separate topic, for the benefit of others searching the forum with this particular conumdrum.

Happy to go either way, as I'm sure Ivan will respond regardless.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:07:25 pm by Ash Priba »
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 08:10:00 pm »

Which if you are just looking to ask him a question, and not looking for others input why don't you just email him or send him a direct message?  The question of what subwoofer from Danley is best for your space is the same question you started off with on your first post.


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David Allred

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 09:18:25 pm »

Which if you are just looking to ask him a question, and not looking for others input why don't you just email him or send him a direct message?  The question of what subwoofer from Danley is best for your space is the same question you started off with on your first post.


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Ash, please don't go private.  I like many, I suppose,  are interested in the thought process and the result.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 09:33:00 pm »

Ash, please don't go private.  I like many, I suppose,  are interested in the thought process and the result.

This, always fun to watch a new venue get built from the sidelines :)

Especially when you're willing to give out a fair amount of $$$ for the project.

Ivan,

The owners of the venue seems to be opening up to the idea of 2 x BC218 in the "eye" configuration, for lower extension and greater headroom vs 4 x TH118. See attached image.

This opens the field to an alternative solution, in the form of 2 x BC415.

----

Mon - Thurs, the music is likely to be more sedate (Lounge).

Fri - Sun, will be geared towards EDM.

----

Q1: Between 2 x BC218 and 2 x BC415 for our venue size of 70 x 35ft and max capacity of 450-500 people (incl mezzanine), where would you lean towards.

Q2: There was a question that with a packed room (450-500 people), the SH50 may be reaching its limits. Is this a concern?

Q3: Which top would best pair with the subwoofer you recommend above.

Thank you.

Q1:
BC218 specs:
Quote
22-185Hz -10dB
142 cont

BC415 specs:
Quote
28-185Hz -10dB
148 cont

Comparing simply the numbers, the 415's are louder; the 218's are lower. Pick your poison.

FWIW (IMO) you'll deafen everyone in that room of yours for any genre with either pair of subs.

I believe I have read threads that Ivan has said the 415 is a fun sub not necessarily a purely accurate sub. It could have been a different sub though lol.

Q2:
SH46 might be better for your purposes, but then you'll loose some coverage area in one dimension and gain in another...?

Q3:
Generally speaking, the Jerichos are the correct tops to pair with those monsters. (IMO again)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:49:19 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 07:30:04 am »

I have heard a pair of the BC218s and the bottom end output is  mind blowing!
Still, 4 TH118s would be VERY good and probably lower cost.
If you install either sub configuration,  I hope you have good neighbours around the venue because that kind of bass gets around....everywhere!
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 09:04:08 am »

Ivan,

The owners of the venue seems to be opening up to the idea of 2 x BC218 in the "eye" configuration, for lower extension and greater headroom vs 4 x TH118. See attached image.

This opens the field to an alternative solution, in the form of 2 x BC415.

----

Mon - Thurs, the music is likely to be more sedate (Lounge).

Fri - Sun, will be geared towards EDM.

----

Q1: Between 2 x BC218 and 2 x BC415 for our venue size of 70 x 35ft and max capacity of 450-500 people (incl mezzanine), where would you lean towards.

Q2: There was a question that with a packed room (450-500 people), the SH50 may be reaching its limits. Is this a concern?

Q3: Which top would best pair with the subwoofer you recommend above.

Thank you.
Here are my thoughts, there are pros and cons, I will try to list all of them,

This will be a little long, I'm sorry.

1: Both the BC415 and BC218 are among the most "bang for the buck" products Danley offers.

Yes, they are the most expensive subs, but when you consider how much output your get, and how many other subs (amps, cables, truck space etc) it would take to equal that output, they look pretty cheap.  But not everybody needs the output or the lower extension they offer.

Honestly, 4 TH118s would do a "fine job" in your room.  Some people want more than "fine".

2: Both BC cabinets are basically the same size-except the BC218 is 4" deeper than the BC415. 

However, the BC218 has input jacks on 2 sides of the cabinet, so you could plug the NL4s into the "ends" of the "eyeball" configuration (as you have shown) so that they would go closer to the wall.  However, this might be a "temptation" for some punters to unplug it-so that needs to be considered.

3: Sonically there are differences.  Both cabinets go louder than you would possibly need for a room that size.

As a general rule, the BC415 goes "louder" and the BC218 goes deeper,

HOWEVER-that depends (as always) on what freq you are talking about.  At the lower end of the BC218s response, it is louder than the BC415.  So the loudness is only in the intended operating range of the cabinet.

Personally, I feel the BC218 has a smoother, more natural sound, but the BC415 is more "fun".  But you realize the difference in sound unless you compare them side by side.  I thought the BC415 was fine, until I heard it next to a BC218.  It all depends on your "reference".

If I was doing "kick drum rock and roll" or other popular types of music, the BC415 would be my choice-simply because of the output capability.

I like the BC415 for large stadium work because of the greater output capability

If I was doing deep EDM, the BC218 would often be a better choice (assuming it will get loud enough for the intended application-which it will be for your room). 

In a room of your size, with the room gain, the capability of the BC218 and possibly a little EQ  boost on the very bottom, you should be able to get to 20Hz flat, easily, some room modes exempted.

4: Personally I think the BC218 (in the eyeball configuration) looks a lot "cooler" than 2 BC415s.  In a recent EDM festival in Oregon for the eclispe, one of the stages had a pair of BC218s (like you describe) in the middle, and stacks of TH118s on the sides.  I think it was 2 stacks (1 each side) of TH118s (8 TH118s per stack)

Apparently there was a line of people waiting to get inside of the cavity (there are grills recessed inside to keep garbage away from the drivers).  Somebody said he thought several babies were conceived inside the BC218s during the event.

5:  If you are looking for the "WOW" audio experience, the the BC218 would be my choice in your room.  You would have people stunned at the audio experience (assuming you have good quality content being played).

Part of the problem with an accurate system, is that it revels the flaws in bad sources (poor musicians, low bit rate MP3s etc).  But with good sources, it can be quite stunning.

I would agree that the SH50 might be near its limit (of course depending on how loud you actually want to run the levels).  Some people like it a lot louder than others, so "it depends".

If you have older SH50s, then you might want to get the "add on" Sentinel protection board for the HF driver.  The HF is the weakest point in the cabinet, but when you add the Sentinel, you can drive the cabinet harder without damage.

I think you said you already own the SH50s, so I would start with that (be sure to set limiters properly)-we can help you with that, depending on what limiters you have available.  The ones inside the DNA amps are specific for Danley products.  You could use a single DNA20K amp and power the 2 subs and 2 tops off of it.

When looking at higher output tops, there are a couple of options.  For around the same physical size (but smaller) the SM80 would be a good choice.

If you could tolerate larger physical size, the SH96 would be my choice.

Of the 3 cabinets, I would list them in order of "sonic purity" as #1 Sh50, #2, Sh96,  #3 SM80.

In terms of output SPL,  #1 SH96,  #2 SM80,  #3 Sh50.  This depends on freq.  If the tops are run down low, the SM80 will be last below 100Hz.

Hopefully this helps.

As you can tell there are many things to consider when looking at a speaker system.  Sometimes one factor is more important than others, but to other people different factors are more important.

What YOU need to consider is what is best for YOUR SPECIFIC application.

A different room/application might require a different approach. 

That is why there are so many different options out there.  There is no "one size fits all"


Hopefully this helps and does not sound to much like an "ad".
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Ivan Beaver
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Ash Priba

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 09:33:27 pm »

Ash, please don't go private.  I like many, I suppose,  are interested in the thought process and the result.

Thank you. As you say, it is always fascinating to see the thought process behind the selection of products.

-----

The Danley demo day was with 2 x TH118 and the resident DJ commented on lack of lower frequencies. In reading Ivan's detailed response, the only option we have is 2 x BC218.

This is the latest iteration of 2 x BC218. I personally like this the best.

The front surface to the left and right of the BC218 will be LED panels. We will likely request special interior color (like the PG system) and install RGB LEDs inside the BC218 for added effect.

If this happens, this will probably be the biggest, baddest 20hz sub install in any club in this country.


Apparently there was a line of people waiting to get inside of the cavity (there are grills recessed inside to keep garbage away from the drivers).  Somebody said he thought several babies were conceived inside the BC218s during the event.

ps. making babies in the vicinity of the subwoofer will be highly frowned upon
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 10:11:22 pm by Ash Priba »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2017, 07:35:23 am »


The front surface to the left and right of the BC218 will be LED panels. We will likely request special interior color (like the PG system) and install RGB LEDs inside the BC218 for added effect.


If you go for a custom internal color, I suggest white.  That way you can use RGB LEDs and make the inside any color you want.  We did this on some BC415s and it was quite interesting.

The response of the BC415s in the stacked configuration is a little different than the end to end.

As shown on the spec sheet, you can see the differences between singles and doubles of each configuration.

These were measured at 10M in the middle of a large parking lot.  So inside a room the response will be different.

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/BC-218-spec-sheet-2.pdf
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2017, 08:39:59 am »



The response of the BC415s in the stacked configuration is a little different than the end to end.


I think that should have read BC218...
Interesting response difference from "eye" to stacked.
The white painted, LED lit interior, is a great idea for a club install :)
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Ash Priba

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2017, 09:56:52 am »

If you go for a custom internal color, I suggest white.  That way you can use RGB LEDs and make the inside any color you want.  We did this on some BC415s and it was quite interesting.

White is a great suggestion.

You wouldn't happen to have images or a video clip of the white internal color with the RGB led effect? You have my email if it's more appropriate to send this by email.

Thank you.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2017, 10:14:42 am »

I think that should have read BC218...
Interesting response difference from "eye" to stacked.

You are correct. Sorry
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2017, 12:33:49 pm »

White is a great suggestion.

You wouldn't happen to have images or a video clip of the white internal color with the RGB led effect? You have my email if it's more appropriate to send this by email.

Thank you.
Here is a little video of 2 BC415s and 2 SH96HOs in white with the LEDs

They were tied into the light console so the light guy had control over the colors

https://www.facebook.com/olipino/videos/o.274136649395678/10151641185723392/?type=2&theater
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2017, 12:40:05 pm »

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David Allred

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 02:27:59 pm »

Here's one with some people in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch1jORiKccE&feature=youtu.be
The subs sounded all distorted and not loud at all.  I could barely here them (or the system) over the dogs barking outside.  ;D
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Ash Priba

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2017, 11:22:56 am »

Here is a little video of 2 BC415s and 2 SH96HOs in white with the LEDs.
They were tied into the light console so the light guy had control over the colors

That looks amazing. Do you know where the led's were placed in relation to the front opening of the SH96HOs?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2017, 12:21:51 pm »

That looks amazing. Do you know where the led's were placed in relation to the front opening of the SH96HOs?
That is the tough part.

I made a "frame" that went over the front of the cabinet and it stuck out in front of the edges of the horn enough to mount the RGB strips on the backside of the frame.

The problem is that the frame had to be large enough to get the leds to get past the flare break in the cabinet.

Yes, there was probably some sonic interference, but in this case the "cool look factor" was more important.

It was fun to do, but not practical to manufacture.

Of course you could paint them white and simply video map onto them, but that would cost more.  but would also give a lot more variety and possibilities.

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Frederik Rosenkjśr

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 03:00:56 pm »

It sounds like you could have the budget for a pair of good color LED profile spots. Since this is fixed install, they could be mounted far away and with their knives be focused accurately on the horn. That stuff can look magical. Or, as Ivan suggests, video projection. Only problem with these that I can see is that potential haze/smoke would give away the source of light.
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Ash Priba

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 08:09:55 pm »

It sounds like you could have the budget for a pair of good color LED profile spots.

That's a good idea. LED spots are easier on the pockets than a projector.
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Len Zenith Jr

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2017, 08:22:07 pm »

Or, as Ivan suggests, video projection. Only problem with these that I can see is that potential haze/smoke would give away the source of light.

You'll only notice "the beam" when the source of light is shining towards you, when it is shining away from you, you don't really see it. In this instance only the DJ or the band would notice the projector beams or someone right at the cabinets looking back.
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Scott Hibbard

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2017, 09:14:00 pm »

I have heard a pair of the BC218s and the bottom end output is  mind blowing!
Still, 4 TH118s would be VERY good and probably lower cost.
If you install either sub configuration,  I hope you have good neighbours around the venue because that kind of bass gets around....everywhere!

Keith I'm more worried about the DJ! He's the one that is going to be deaf!

ScottH
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David Allred

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 09:52:26 am »

Casting light (to illuminate the entire mouth) externally, seems problematic.  How will you keep people from blocking some or all of the beam?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley: 2 x BC415 vs 2 x BC218
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 11:38:37 am »

Casting light (to illuminate the entire mouth) externally, seems problematic.  How will you keep people from blocking some or all of the beam?
The subs would be a real problem with the light being blocked.

The full range cabinets, not so much.
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Ivan Beaver
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