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Author Topic: because they only use tweeters?  (Read 3317 times)

David Allred

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 03:27:45 pm »

If distortion, by and of itself, could blow speakers just think of where guitar amps would be today.... see where we're going here?
I was referring to Craig's response that no matter where distortion occurs, that it is bad for the tweeter.  That the harmonics make it passed the x-over, regardless.  It was contrary to what I thought, but was giving the opportunity to justify.
Do you want to take a stab at my list of possibilities above?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 05:30:40 pm »

I was referring to Craig's response that no matter where distortion occurs, that it is bad for the tweeter.  That the harmonics make it passed the x-over, regardless.  It was contrary to what I thought, but was giving the opportunity to justify.
Do you want to take a stab at my list of possibilities above?

Distortion is not necessarily clipping, which is a square wave.  Realize that clipping the output of a power amp occurs at FULL TILT BOOGIE, while distortion can be at any measurable level.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Ivan Beaver

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 06:35:33 pm »

Many people do not understand what "distortion" actually is-or what it "adds" to the sound/signal.

Basically distortion is simply added harmonics.  Meaning more freq.

It is NOT the additional freq that cause  problem.

If that was the case, then you could say that classical music is more damaging than simple rock-because there are more freq there.

Distortion is NOT a knife that cuts through devices, just more freq.

If distortion itself would kill speakers, then just about any guitar or keyboard that is run through a sound system would kill the HF.

How distortion CAN kill speakers is the additional freq "piling up" and causing a higher average voltage applied to the driver-causing it to heat up more.

Of course, simply turning up the level will ALSO apply additional heating to the driver.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Paul G. OBrien

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 09:19:30 pm »

I was referring to Craig's response that no matter where distortion occurs, that it is bad for the tweeter.  That the harmonics make it passed the x-over, regardless. 

The two things you need to understand is that crossover filters operate on frequency only, the type of signal doesn't matter.
The other thing is that speakers are blown by being overpowering... Period. They also don't care what type of signal you feed them, clean, heavily distorted.. doesn't matter they will try to reproduce all of it and will do it indefinitely as long as the thermal power handling or mechanical excursion limits are not exceeded.

But these two properties(distortion and harmonics) can combine to cause a driver to fail. A distorted signal or clipped amplifier stage will produce a lot more sustained hi frequency content than a high frequency driver would normally see with a clean music signal.. which is fairly dynamic with a relatively low average level, and that is how it ends up being overpowered and that is why overdriving a mixer or amplifier is bad.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 09:31:10 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Dave Potter

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2017, 01:17:16 pm »

Quote
I'm asking the OP here... is that really the case? Do they really want it as loud as it is now at tweeter blowing SPLs or are they just totally clueless about systems operation and are happy with the SPLs after you tweak things and bring the levels under control?
Both!  I won't kid you.  Its ugly.  More education/rule/limits need to be applied.

I personally have been a bass player used to playing with amplified musicians since the late 70s.  What I've been doing sounds reasonably right even if I didn't know the precise science (you don't need to know the exact nature of distortion damage if you have headroom and don't allow distortion!). 

Its a 20 - 40 piece Rio style samba band even at rehearsals. They are primarily dancers and drummers and top notch at what they do, BUT For these guys, its the first reason they had to be amplified. There was no core knowledge and they've been used to doing it badly for a long time.  Fingers everywhere.
"Use the 58."
"What's a 58?"

So the original question wasn't about how to avoid distortion or run clean sound.  Just really if there was something fundamentally wrong with the type of equipment for the application.  I've been with them for a year or so.  Earning a certain amount of respect, so it time to start influencing some changes.

Thanks for all of the replies.  Wish me luck.  :-\
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David Allred

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2017, 01:57:27 pm »

The two things you need to understand is that crossover filters operate on frequency only, the type of signal doesn't matter.
The other thing is that speakers are blown by being overpowering... Period. They also don't care what type of signal you feed them, clean, heavily distorted.. doesn't matter they will try to reproduce all of it and will do it indefinitely as long as the thermal power handling or mechanical excursion limits are not exceeded.

But these two properties(distortion and harmonics) can combine to cause a driver to fail. A distorted signal or clipped amplifier stage will produce a lot more sustained hi frequency content than a high frequency driver would normally see with a clean music signal.. which is fairly dynamic with a relatively low average level, and that is how it ends up being overpowered and that is why overdriving a mixer or amplifier is bad.

I will give one more stab at this.
If a guitar pedal adds distortion to the direct channel sound of the guitar, and the output from the mixer is set at a specific amplitude, and the wave form is captured, then sent to the amp and speaker.  The affect on the tweeter is "X".
If a guitar (less pedal) is plugged into a channel, can the channel or main bus be over-driven to match the waveform (previously) going to the amp?.  Did the affect to the tweeter change? And if it can't duplicate, pretend that it could.
What if the matching waveform is only achieved in the amp's input circuit or the output circuit due to clipping? 


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Tim McCulloch

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2017, 02:00:33 pm »

I will give one more stab at this.
If a guitar pedal adds distortion to the direct channel sound of the guitar, and the output from the mixer is set at a specific amplitude, and the wave form is captured, then sent to the amp and speaker.  The affect on the tweeter is "X".
If a guitar (less pedal) is plugged into a channel, can the channel or main bus be over-driven to match the waveform (previously) going to the amp?.  Did the affect to the tweeter change? And if it can't duplicate, pretend that it could.
What if the matching waveform is only achieved in the amp's input circuit or the output circuit due to clipping?

ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE INPUT WAVEFORM AND OUTPUT WAVEFORM IS DISTORTION.

Clipping is a form of distortion but not the only form of it, but SUSTAINED AMPLIFIER OUTPUT CLIPPING is bad for speakers because it's happening at the FULL OUTPUT CAPABILITY OF THE AMP.

I don't think I can make that any clearer.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Ivan Beaver

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2017, 02:07:38 pm »

ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE INPUT WAVEFORM AND OUTPUT WAVEFORM IS DISTORTION.


And just to add, even a tonal difference or compression or gating or "whatever plug in" IS adding distortion to the original signal.

Because the signal that comes out IS NOT the same as what went in.  Therefore it is "distorted" and unlike the original.  Hence the name "distortion".

Once again, a term that is commonly used, yet used incorrectly most of the time.

Of course a "clipped signal" (which is what most people refer to as distortion) IS distortion.  But you can have distortion with a non clipped signal as well.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

David Allred

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2017, 03:21:50 pm »

Every answer given has definitely been an answer, and all correct to my understanding.  However not an answer to my question.
Maybe this will trigger what I want to know.


Identical systems in identical condition.

#1 - mic preamp overdriven to making the vocal sound fuzzy, bad, distorted, no good, output to amp and speaker where the total energy (adjusted for harmonics and power) to the tweeter is "X".

#2 Mic preamp is clean, output to amp and speaker where the total energy (adjusted for harmonics and power) to the tweeter is also the same as "X" in #1.

Is the distorted signal tweeter stressed more than the other?


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Dave Potter

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2017, 03:36:36 pm »

Every answer given has definitely been an answer, and all correct to my understanding.  However not an answer to my question.
Maybe this will trigger what I want to know.


Identical systems in identical condition.

#1 - mic preamp overdriven to making the vocal sound fuzzy, bad, distorted, no good, output to amp and speaker where the total energy (adjusted for harmonics and power) to the tweeter is "X".

#2 Mic preamp is clean, output to amp and speaker where the total energy (adjusted for harmonics and power) to the tweeter is also the same as "X" in #1.

Is the distorted signal tweeter stressed more than the other?
This is the best I've seen this question asked.  It deserves a thread of its own. 
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