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Author Topic: because they only use tweeters?  (Read 2395 times)

Dave Potter

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 02:42:35 am »

There are fundamental pitches that are 2+ octaves below the HF driver's electrical crossover so no, you do need a cone.  Whether or not it should have been a different size is a red herring, it makes no difference for vocals or uke in regards to blowing up HF drivers.
Huh?  I wasn't suggesting that there shouldn't be a cone.  The original post was really asking if most of the energy was being directed through the tweeter.  Actually I just found the manual online.  300W through the 15" and a separate 100W amp for the tweeter with a crossover at 1300Hz.
So Perhaps I should ask a slightly different question.  Should they have bought something more HF capable, or with a slightly higher crossover point?
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2017, 08:06:14 am »

Huh?  I wasn't suggesting that there shouldn't be a cone.  The original post was really asking if most of the energy was being directed through the tweeter.  Actually I just found the manual online.  300W through the 15" and a separate 100W amp for the tweeter with a crossover at 1300Hz.
So Perhaps I should ask a slightly different question.  Should they have bought something more HF capable, or with a slightly higher crossover point?
They should have bought a bigger better speaker.  As an end user buying a powered speaker, you shouldn't care at all where the crossover point is.


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Stelios Mac

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 08:44:33 am »

There's at least 3 to 4 octaves of content below 1300Hz with vocal material. Down to 80~120 Hz, depending on the voice & note. You certainly (should) be using the woofer almost as much as the tweeter, unless you enjoy overly bright sound... If you like your vocals to sound very warm and bass-heavy, you may even be putting more stress on the woofer than the tweeters.

All speakers should (and most do) sound relatively flat out of the box.
They should have as much headroom in the highs as they do in the lows.
If you blow the HF drivers, it means they're being driven hard (doesn't mean the woofer isn't being driven hard too) and you simply need a louder speaker. It doesn't matter whether that's a 15" or a 12" or a 10".

That being said, usually 15" speakers go slightly lower than other smaller sizes at the expense of beaming in the higher end of their frequency response. This is why higher end 15" 2-way cabs are usually paired with a 2" horn, that way the crossover point can be lowered and get more even response throughout the mid range area. It all depends on the actual woofer however, some high end 15" woofers may perform better in that regard than low-end 12" or smaller woofers.

Generally speaking, since you don't need low end extension down to 40Hz, a 12" speaker of the same series could - possibly - (again, it depends) improve the way vocals and ukeleles sound in the mids, but it's not related to your problem in any way.
What you need is a more powerful speaker, no matter the woofer's size.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 09:38:16 am »

What you need is a more powerful speaker,

I'm asking the OP here... is that really the case? Do they really want it as loud as it is now at tweeter blowing SPLs or are they just totally clueless about systems operation and are happy with the SPLs after you tweak things and bring the levels under control?
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David Allred

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 11:01:22 am »

I'm asking the OP here... is that really the case? Do they really want it as loud as it is now at tweeter blowing SPLs or are they just totally clueless about systems operation and are happy with the SPLs after you tweak things and bring the levels under control?
How do I ask this? 
The sound of distortion is not a distorted signal (necessarily).  Correct?
If that signal (of the distortion sound) become distorted, is that signal clipped?
Can I swap distortion and Clipped?  If that signal (of the distortion sound) become clipped, is that signal distorted?

Now, if a mic is clipped (distorted), will the main output be distorted, but not clipped?

Where in the chain does clipping directly affect the tweeter by introducing power above and harmonics (hz) below its capacity? 
Channel pre?
Sub-mix bus?
Main bus?
Amp input?
Amp output?
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Craig Hauber

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 12:44:25 pm »


Where in the chain does clipping directly affect the tweeter by introducing power above and harmonics (hz) below its capacity? 
Channel pre?
Sub-mix bus?
Main bus?
Amp input?
Amp output?

All of them.

Anywhere the distortion is created the signal then carries the resultant harmonics with it through all subsequent stages. You can add even more distortion in any of those stages by improper operation also.  Nothing removes the clipping-type distortion from a signal and clipping a later stage adds new additional distortion (and does not remove the original clipping and "replace" it.) 

And its not that any distortion will automatically result in a blown tweeter, like everything in audio its simply too much level of signal within the tweeter's range that burns it out. 
You can blow that tweeter with pristine clear audio and amps not clipping too -if it's more than that tweeter can handle! 

Likewise if the tweeter is robust enough you can send clipped audio to it all night long if the resultant audio still falls within it's thermal and mechanical limits.

Blowing tweeters at this level is generally not an inaudible process,  You will hear the "magic" distortion-induced harmonics -it will sound louder (raspier and harsher) than normal.  So at that point turn it down.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 12:56:03 pm »

H
So Perhaps I should ask a slightly different question.  Should they have bought something more HF capable, or with a slightly higher crossover point?
Judging loudness by wattage is VERY OFTEN going to result in wrong answers.

Yes, wattage is ONE factor.  But sensitivity is another VERY important factor in how loud things can get.

The crossover point of often not a matter of power capacity, but rather how well it mates to the next freq range, and the excursion capability of the driver.

Yes, as you narrow a passband, the power applied (and SPL) will be reduced, but often not as much as you would think. 
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 12:57:21 pm »

They should have bought a bigger better speaker.  As an end user buying a powered speaker, you shouldn't care at all where the crossover point is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Agreed.

The only "xover point" that should be of concern is the low freq response, which would give an indication of what the next lowest freq range should do.
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Ivan Beaver
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David Allred

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 01:25:49 pm »

All of them.

Anywhere the distortion is created the signal then carries the resultant harmonics with it through all subsequent stages. You can add even more distortion in any of those stages by improper operation also.  Nothing removes the clipping-type distortion from a signal and clipping a later stage adds new additional distortion (and does not remove the original clipping and "replace" it.) 

And its not that any distortion will automatically result in a blown tweeter, like everything in audio its simply too much level of signal within the tweeter's range that burns it out. 
You can blow that tweeter with pristine clear audio and amps not clipping too -if it's more than that tweeter can handle! 

Likewise if the tweeter is robust enough you can send clipped audio to it all night long if the resultant audio still falls within it's thermal and mechanical limits.

Blowing tweeters at this level is generally not an inaudible process,  You will hear the "magic" distortion-induced harmonics -it will sound louder (raspier and harsher) than normal.  So at that point turn it down.

So a distortion effect on a guitar, not improperly driven, when sent to the powered speaker that is operating under normal (non limiting or clipping) conditions... the tweeter will still receive those lower added harmonics, even though they are well beyond the x-over's filtering, at their full (unfiltered) levels?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: because they only use tweeters?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 02:13:42 pm »

So a distortion effect on a guitar, not improperly driven, when sent to the powered speaker that is operating under normal (non limiting or clipping) conditions... the tweeter will still receive those lower added harmonics, even though they are well beyond the x-over's filtering, at their full (unfiltered) levels?

If distortion, by and of itself, could blow speakers just think of where guitar amps would be today.... see where we're going here?
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