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[Scott Gentry]

Some of the suggestions here can be accomplished with most of the modern digital boards, so it begs the question: what are you mixing with?

Mixwizard 4. 16:2,
I also have a TouchMix 8 that I use for a small system inside the house, haven't hooked it up outside, not enough inputs.

[Scott Gentry]

https://vintageking.com/gml-8200?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4f_U9e_e1QIVBAxpCh2Zdg8vEAQYAiABEgLuSPD_BwE

You said high quality


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Holy cow !!!! Uh,,, I'm good!!

[Scott Gentry]

The primary benefit of using a system processor with "packaged" loudspeaker systems is that you can compensate (somewhat) for non-colocated tops/subs with delays, and you have EQ with memory.

If you use the Yamaha speakers you'll find it Very Good Indeed that the crossovers are included in both the tops and subs.  You will not need - and should not use - the 360 to cross over between the tops & subs.  Use it for delay, EQ, etc.

I've not looked into the routing and technical capabilities of the 360, but if you can use it as a 3 in, 6 out DSP with whatever internal routing you want, you can do some good stuff with it but most of that Wholesome Creamy Goodness will not be used until you expand to using delay speakers or need to align the PA to front fill speakers or use nontraditional sub/top placements.

You ain't there yet, Scott

Agreed !!

I've actually been working on getting someone I know and trust to come out to my place, I'm about an hour from Dallas, TX

Always good advice, thank you. And yes, VENUE 360 is three in, six out, user configurable. I like. It's also simple for me to understand and learn on. I expect gaining a better understanding of its functions and capabilities will help me as well.

Main purpose of the thread was really to try and understand what true and factual benefits are achieved using a matched system, does actually having the subs and mains wired together make a difference ( other than crossover points), vs feeding the same two boxes from two outputs (high and low), etc.

And maybe more specifically, what if I like say the EV main and the Yamaha sub, or the other way around. What if each independently sounds better to me, why would it be a negative to not have a matched set??

Once again, this is a knowledge based question, not completely specific to a problem, but more to learn an understanding of what's actually taking place within the drivers/ enclosures/ etc. When I was using a different top, and almost pulled the trigger on a different brand sub, several suggested staying with the same manufacturer to retain the benefits that were built into that system. For discussion purposes, if you're willing, many people said if you want an awesome sub, buy a JTR. Ok, suppose I went that direction, and bought, IDK say a EV 35 main. Taking the output capability of the JTR out of the equation, what specifically does the all EV system, or JBL, or QSC, etc. have over the system with two different brands.

I guess I'm trying to get real world answers to why a matching rig is "supposed" to be better? And in what way? Isn't a really good sub and a really good main still really good regardless of what's above or below it? Obviously they would need to have the crossover sections matched by the user, but are the big companies doing something so special there that the regular guy can't come close?

When I bought my first system I did what I suspect most did, I listened to a few different speakers in the price range I could afford, and I bought what sounded best to me. As it turned out the subs and mains were made by two different companies. I'm trying to understand why many have suggested that's not the best approach. Not trying to be difficult or challenge any facts, but when companies use words like "optimized" in their marketing literature, I'm not so quick to accept without knowing exactly how that's been achieved.

[Dave Garoutte]

I think you'll find lots of folks here mixing and matching top and bottoms.
Lots of Yammie tops over JBL subs.
If you're using the 360, you can dial in the crossovers if you have a way to measure it.
The primary advantage to matching brands is theoretically, they have done the work for you.

[Tim McCulloch]

Scott, the primary benefit of using matched systems is that ALL the heavy lifting of alignment has been done for you.

Why is it important to get the best alignment between boxes?  Because that's where the energy is.

If you make them play nice together in the time domain (overlapping phase response for at least 1/2 octave on either side of the acoustic crossover) you will get mo' betta sound.  "Flat" phase response, like the DIY top box Peter Morris designed, is the Holy Grail of loudspeaker design, especially when that response is flat throughout each acoustic crossover region.  If you've read Peter's thread over at Soundforums dot net you've seen what a non-trivial task this was but also how satisfying the outcome.

When JBL, Yamaha, EV, RCF, etc create their DSP parameters - particularly as they relate to the sub/top crossover - they're taking care of that.  Every transducer has different phase response and that response is altered by the physical enclosure the transducer is mounted in (and for subs, the design of the box: bass reflex, horn, tapped horn, band pass, etc).  That's why it's generally considered imprudent to mix and match unless you have experience in using dual channel FFT analyzers like Smaart or Systune and have some experience in alignment.

Sure, folks mix and match all the time and for some of them there is the Bob Ross "happy accident" where things work out well or at least don't fight each other.  I'd bet next week's gig that most folks who do it trade off the pre-aligned work done by the manufacturer for perceived additional output or some particular sonic characteristic that they think is better (usually it's not, but they don't realize what they screwed up).

Glad you sticking with this because in short order you'll have your brain on overload... trust me, that's not such a bad thing...

[Scott Gentry]

Scott, the primary benefit of using matched systems is that ALL the heavy lifting of alignment has been done for you.

Why is it important to get the best alignment between boxes?  Because that's where the energy is.


When JBL, Yamaha, EV, RCF, etc create their DSP parameters - particularly as they relate to the sub/top crossover - they're taking care of that.  Every transducer has different phase response and that response is altered by the physical enclosure the transducer is mounted in (and for subs, the design of the box: bass reflex, horn, tapped horn, band pass, etc).  That's why it's generally considered imprudent to mix and match unless you have experience in using dual channel FFT analyzers like Smaart or Systune and have some experience in alignment

Now that makes sense, or at the very  least a positive argument for using a matched set. So, I'll certainly check out the suggested reading, but if I understand correctly, or even somewhat there's a timing alignment?, between the two boxes, particularly at the crossover point, is that correct?
If so, how, or what triggers that? Do the subs and mains have to be wired together to achieve that alignment. Meaning input to sub, out from sub to main input, or will the two speakers behave properly if the signal arrives from two different inputs, assuming the source material is identical.

Excellent explanation, thank you!

[Geert Friedhof]

Now that makes sense, or at the very  least a positive argument for using a matched set. So, I'll certainly check out the suggested reading, but if I understand correctly, or even somewhat there's a timing alignment?, between the two boxes, particularly at the crossover point, is that correct?
If so, how, or what triggers that? Do the subs and mains have to be wired together to achieve that alignment. Meaning input to sub, out from sub to main input, or will the two speakers behave properly if the signal arrives from two different inputs, assuming the source material is identical.

Excellent explanation, thank you!

It depends on construction (Frontloaded, hornloaded), filter design (analog, digital), filter type (fir, iir) and samplerate, and i probably forget some. So it really is a crapshoot to predict what is happening. Therefor the only way to know for sure is to measure it, or let someone else measure it. The manufacturer for instance, who will use that info to create the right settings.

[Scott Gentry]

Sure, folks mix and match all the time and for some of them there is the Bob Ross "happy accident" where things work out well or at least don't fight each other.  I'd bet next week's gig that most folks who do it trade off the pre-aligned work done by the manufacturer for perceived additional output or some particular sonic characteristic that they think is better (usually it's not, but they don't realize what they screwed up).

Glad you sticking with this because in short order you'll have your brain on overload... trust me, that's not such a bad thing...




Ok, so I get the manufacturer has optimized the crossover for not only frequency, but time as well, is that right?

So, using the before mentioned systems, or equivalent decent quality MI system, that leaves a few questions if you would.

1) I'm assuming that puts the rig in either full stereo, or full mono, not both. Meaning stereo mains and mono subs aren't really an option. Is that correct?

2) Is there a way to run the subs on an aux or mono channel without screwing up the OEM's settings? If so, how would it be done?

&

3) How should a four sub, 2 main configuration be optimally wired. I got it with one sub, but when running two per main how should the signal flow? Sub, to sub, to main,,, or input to sub one, with dual output to second sub and main from the original sub? My brain says sub to sub to main could create some lag in the signal chain, but I truthfully have no idea.

Thanks again!!!

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Ok, so I get the manufacturer has optimized the crossover for not only frequency, but time as well, is that right?

There is the crossover frequency and slope, and the related parameters of phase (time) and phase slope (rate of phase rotation).  Doing a basic time alignment is possible using a nulling procedure, but there are caveats if the phase slopes are different between mains and subs - i.e. you might be in phase at 80Hz, but out of phase at 90Hz.  I think it was mentioned somewhere in one of your threads, but the "electronic crossover point" does not always equal the "acoustic crossover point".  The crossover point is defined as the frequency where the level is the same between two drivers.  If you use your mono fader and add a bunch of gain to make your subwoofers louder (I'm not talking about woo-woo stuff about magical places on the actual fader, rather that you turn your subs proportionally louder than your mains), this point starts shifting up.  It may have started at 80Hz, but the "haystacking" of extra sub level has moved the crossover point to 100Hz or higher.

This can be done with non-matching subs, however it isn't trivial and requires a measurement system.  Having a matching system leaves the heavy lifting to the smart people who designed the boxes.

So, using the before mentioned systems, or equivalent decent quality MI system, that leaves a few questions if you would.

1) I'm assuming that puts the rig in either full stereo, or full mono, not both. Meaning stereo mains and mono subs aren't really an option. Is that correct?

Stereo mains and mono subs are done all the time.  There's usually very little difference at subwoofer frequencies between the left and right channels.  Arguably there isn't, or at least shouldn't be that much difference in the mains either, as most of the audience is not covered by both speakers, so hard panned things will be missed entirely by some people.

2) Is there a way to run the subs on an aux or mono channel without screwing up the OEM's settings? If so, how would it be done?

Aux subs are fine and won't screw up manufacturer's settings IF the subs are right under the mains.  If the subs are somewhere else such as centered in the room, you will need to add a few milliseconds of delay to your subs to make them more in line with your mains.  Keep in mind that this is always a compromise - you will never get it perfect for all places in the room, but having crossover phase slopes that are similar makes this more manageable.

3) How should a four sub, 2 main configuration be optimally wired. I got it with one sub, but when running two per main how should the signal flow? Sub, to sub, to main,,, or input to sub one, with dual output to second sub and main from the original sub? My brain says sub to sub to main could create some lag in the signal chain, but I truthfully have no idea.

Thanks again!!!

The propagation speed of an electronic signal in a wire is some significant fraction of the speed of light.  Length of cable and order of plugging in make no difference.

Commenting on what someone said in possibly another thread about needing at least 2 big subs per 835 - this is only true if one sub doesn't get loud enough.  Unused headroom in the 835 is gravy, and probably leads to better sound quality, as distortion will be lower.  He's right in that if you need the full output of the 835 and want similar sub levels you will need multiple subs, but there is no reason to have more than one sub if you are getting what you need from the one.

[Brian_Henry]

My brain says sub to sub to main could create some lag in the signal chain, but I truthfully have no idea.

Thanks again!!!

Each meter of cable will theoretical introduce only several nanoseconds of delay. So, in practice this is not a concern.


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