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[Mal Brown]

Do you really need to fill that space ?  If it was me, I'd go back to the board and explain
This is bigger than what I was led to believe. If you want to fill it, we need to re-bid.  If you are ok with it, we'll bring in the system and amplify a smaller area.  Folks that want to listen will move in, those that want to talk will move back...  is the concert the fund raiser or other activities around the event ?  I do a lot of these sorts of events and often, it really isn't about the bands.

[frank kayser]

Do you really need to fill that space ?  If it was me, I'd go back to the board and explain
This is bigger than what I was led to believe. If you want to fill it, we need to re-bid.  If you are ok with it, we'll bring in the system and amplify a smaller area.  Folks that want to listen will move in, those that want to talk will move back...  is the concert the fund raiser or other activities around the event ?  I do a lot of these sorts of events and often, it really isn't about the bands.

Hi Mal, thanks for your suggestion.  Yes, I was asked to fill the area - the quality of the bands are much better than what should be used for background music at an art fair, but that is what the music program is.  The music is a distant also-ran. 

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

...the quality of the bands are much better than what should be used for background music at an art fair...

 
Very strange statement, that, and I don't mean just the "quality are" disagreement of subject and verb.

[frank kayser]

He may not be as screwed as he thinks.

Lets look at the hard facts. The client paid for that system and then changed the layout from what it used to be. The OP went based on past information and should have confirmed first, but the client still agreed to that system at X price knowing what they had in mind.

You couldn't cover 450' deep of anything without delays or one HELL of line array system. The client needs to know that. You also can't really cover 200' wide unless you again have delays. So now we get into expectations. If the band area is simply for a band performance, then you don't need to worry about the nose bleed areas as much. While your PA will be working to produce full range sound as it is, it will still get the noise out to the people. If you are pushing 100db at 25' from the stage, you could potentially be getting 75db at the 450' mark. While this isn't earth shattering, it can be heard over the casual park goer ( this is an art fair ). The trick will be getting the PA up in the air as high as you can above people heads. Next is reasonable expectations. If the client truly wants full coverage over the entire area, then they again need to know that their expectations doesn't meet their budget. The client may not understand or care about the physics of it, but the truth is in the pudding. When they want more than what the PA can do, they will wish they spent more money. While they may blame the OP, they were at least warned and next time around they may find that the cost will match their needs.

Hi Luke,
I appreciate your response, but in fairness, I was not misled intentionally, and I jumped at the chance to do this gig.  I did not go into it with full understanding, but I was told the gazebo was not ideally located, and they were trying to get the stage moved closer.  I read that to mean nosebleeds were around 200' and it was maybe 80' to the stage.  450' never crossed my mind, let alone with a 100' grove of trees crossing the "fairway", as it were.  That mistake of inferring my system could handle the event was mine based upon very soft information. 


Never thought of it, but being able to hit a seven-iron the entire distance, and high enough to clear the trees is an interesting view of the distances involved and also beyond the range of a line array...  Wow.


Tonite, I took a very deep breath, and wrote to my contact that I was outclassed and ill equipped/prepared to do a decent job of it.  I gave them an idea of the problems I was facing, and what it may take in terms of delays and additional equipment.


They were totally dissatisfied with the provider last year - I doubt the previous provider gave half the thought to the problem as I have.  I'm sure I could have made an improvement.  However, it still would not be a good quality job.  I don't like half-assed.


Biting the bullet now is the right thing for all involved. They've lost less than a week, and there was more than a week yet before the contract is even drafted. Still 45 days out, they still have a bit of time to look.


frank

[frank kayser]

 
Very strange statement, that, and I don't mean just the "quality are" disagreement of subject and verb.

That's what happens when one rewrites parts of sentences over and over looking for the right phrasing   


As far as explaining what I meant, it bothers me when good musicians do not get any more respect than being stuck at the far end of the event relegated to playing without a proper audience or appreciation of their musicianship. Hell, the art fair could just use pre-recorded music for the background and the crowd would be just as happy.  Ah, but the musicians wouldn't be getting paid now, would they?

[Tim McCulloch]

That's what happens when one rewrites parts of sentences over and over looking for the right phrasing   


As far as explaining what I meant, it bothers me when good musicians do not get any more respect than being stuck at the far end of the event relegated to playing without a proper audience or appreciation of their musicianship. Hell, the art fair could just use pre-recorded music for the background and the crowd would be just as happy.  Ah, but the musicians wouldn't be getting paid now, would they?

I have a theory... "Art people" do not consider musicians to be artists in the same sense as sculptors, painters or illustrators, visual artists in general.

Based on my humble observations of working with both sides of that purchase order...

[Scott Holtzman]

Hi Luke,
I appreciate your response, but in fairness, I was not misled intentionally, and I jumped at the chance to do this gig.  I did not go into it with full understanding, but I was told the gazebo was not ideally located, and they were trying to get the stage moved closer.  I read that to mean nosebleeds were around 200' and it was maybe 80' to the stage.  450' never crossed my mind, let alone with a 100' grove of trees crossing the "fairway", as it were.  That mistake of inferring my system could handle the event was mine based upon very soft information. 


Never thought of it, but being able to hit a seven-iron the entire distance, and high enough to clear the trees is an interesting view of the distances involved and also beyond the range of a line array...  Wow.


Tonite, I took a very deep breath, and wrote to my contact that I was outclassed and ill equipped/prepared to do a decent job of it.  I gave them an idea of the problems I was facing, and what it may take in terms of delays and additional equipment.


They were totally dissatisfied with the provider last year - I doubt the previous provider gave half the thought to the problem as I have.  I'm sure I could have made an improvement.  However, it still would not be a good quality job.  I don't like half-assed.


Biting the bullet now is the right thing for all involved. They've lost less than a week, and there was more than a week yet before the contract is even drafted. Still 45 days out, they still have a bit of time to look.


frank

Have you thought of bringing value by coordinating with another provider?  It will give you valuable experience managing a larger event. 

Start the dialog of what the budget is.  Bring that to us and we can help you make your buy for them.  If you can convince them to disclose the budget instead of sending it out to quote you can provide a much better return on their investment.

[Mike Monte]

Have you thought of bringing value by coordinating with another provider?  It will give you valuable experience managing a larger event. 

Start the dialog of what the budget is.  Bring that to us and we can help you make your buy for them.  If you can convince them to disclose the budget instead of sending it out to quote you can provide a much better return on their investment.

+1
There is a saying in business: "When negotiating price, the first one to mention a figure usually loses..."
I am not saying that in your case this happened...
Doing the project with another sound co would be the best option.

A bunch of years ago I was contacted by a local town to provide the sound production for its annual 4th of July fireworks display.
5,000+ attendees, three zones (two for land based spectators, one for the boats in the harbor), 40 piece concert band, etc.
A huge project for me at that time.

I contacted a local provider to ask him what I should charge...(He had worked the gig in previous years as a subcontrator of another company.)  I did not want to drop the bottom out of local production costs.
I got the gig and subcontracted the local provider to work it with me.
Fast forward to 2017:
We have been doing the gig now for the past 12+(?) years.
Band director is happy, town rec dept is happy (they book me), I (we) get paid appropriately... a total "love fest".

The guy I subcontract calls me for gigs when he has multiples.

Try partnering with a local provider.

[Jerome Malsack]

I will offer up my additional gear if possible. 

or  Gary Wilson
http://www.986sound.com

I can also see if Dave will jump in but he is Manassas area.


I have available  5 Behringer DSP-110 sharks with digital delay. 
My mains are triamp.  JBL 4530 scoops with eminance Kappa 15 lfa
along with a 12 inch 2 way 1200 watt peak with 60 x 40 horn. 

Amps are Crown  xls 2500 on scoops, xls 2500 on 12 in mids, and xls 1500 on horns. 

Behringer N4-6000 amp on monitors 3 Carvin PM15's

Rane SM26 signal splitter. 

2 yamaha 215 speakers.  2 EV TL15-1 cabinets loaded with JBL 2226. 

[Luke Geis]

Was unaware of a tree line!!! If the client wasn't happy last year, then they need to open the pocket book. They had to know based on cost alone that there was no way in hell it was going to improve. Then to change the game and make the problem worse......

This is not 100% your fault. The client needed to be more upfront and give you a real idea of what was needed. Granted you still walked in on a crappy deal, but many clients know better than that. They possibly half expected you to just make it work better than last year for a comparable price?

I would definitely try and eek a budget out of them and see if you can make things work. Many other vendors will work out a discount program for others in their business to help make it easier. Perhaps I am lucky in that all my competition ( if you want to call it that ) offer a 50% discount on equipment ( an offer I also extend ). It's worth asking to see if you can get that type of relationship going anyway.

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