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Author Topic: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"  (Read 1395 times)

BrianHenry

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Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« on: August 02, 2017, 05:42:56 pm »

Hi All:

Shopping around for a few movers that have a beam angle wide enough that they can highlight an artist from the knees up at roughly 15'. I suppose that would be a beam angle of 25-30 degrees? Another constraint would be price - looking to stay well under 1k per fixture if possible. Also, needs to have a LED source to keep power consumption down. I do not need a ton of colors (would like at least RBAW) or gobos. Here's the thing, I'd like it to have a reasonably sharp cutoff like a spot would. Is this a unicorn or can you guys steer me in the right direction?

Paging Jeff :)

Thanks!
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 06:28:55 pm »

MAP for this is in your price range.
I can give better pricing.
Message me.

zoomable spot
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Don T. Williams

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 07:43:24 pm »

I don't know how much output you need, but there are several LED "mini zoom wash light" that might work.  They will not produce a sharp edge focused beam.  For that you need a "profile style" spot.  Again there are a lot of choices.  The Mini Spot 600 from Epsilon Pro has a street price of about $400.00.  It isn't as powerful and doesn't have the features of the Chauvet 375Z IRC Dave referenced, but they have been very reliable for my smaller church customers.  ADJ and Blizzard are two other manufacturers that offer a range of smaller affordable products.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 08:03:28 pm »

Hi Brian, am I the Jeff you're looking for?  There are a few of us Jeffs here!  Have you looked into the Elation Fuze Washes?  I wouldn't say it's priced well under 1k, but the smaller Z120 model should be around that through a dealer with reasonable pricing.  No gobos of course, but it's hard to go wrong with a 7-55 degree zoom range!  As a disclaimer, I have yet to really see and drive one of these in person.  I want to say that maybe Tim or TJ has done an installation with them though, so if that's true maybe they can give a better comment on them...  If you're looking for a medium-sized wash light with a nice zoom range, good color mixing, and enough output to be worth its weight I'd probably start here.  While the beam's edge is defined, it's not a crisp edge like a "spot" or "profile" fixture can give. 

If you're okay giving up the color mixing and extreme zoom, something like a basic Intimidator can work too.  They're a little cheaper, but as always, the wrong tool at the right price is still the wrong tool!  The one nice selling point with a unit such as an Intimidator is that with motorized focus you should be able to get the right type of edge you're looking for.  I think if you shop yet another level up you get frost too, so that's yet one more tool to sculpt the beam with. 

There are also some 3-in-1 movers out there that can do the beam/wash/spot combination.  All the ones I know of that do this well are far beyond your budget though.  Good luck!
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BrianHenry

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2017, 02:37:24 am »

Hi Dave, message sent, thanks!

Hi Don, how robust are Epsilon products? I admit I have not come across them. The 600 has a mean angle of ca. 12 degrees which is probably too narrow for my application. I'll check out their other products though, thanks.

Hi Jeff, yes! I usually see you have some good info to add regarding lighting. The zoom range on the Elation fixture you mention is very appealing - I will have to have a closer look at that. The Z120 comes in a little lighter than the 375Z which is nice, but the MAP is above what I can afford atm. I will spend some time looking at the basic Intimidators as well. I do not need more than basic colors. I would have to see if any have an appropriate beam angle. FYI, by well under 1k I guess I'm trying to target fixtures in the 6-800 range assuming they will meet my needs. If none will, I'd probably wait until I can afford an appropriate model.

All, I am kind of stumped at what I need in terms of power. As much as I want a smaller/lighter fixture, I know it's better to have a brighter one and dim. However, I will almost always be using these at fairly close range of under 20ft except when they might pass over the audience. Is there any rule of thumb on output vs. angle or do I need to experience these in person to really know?

« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 02:39:27 am by BrianHenry »
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 01:59:37 pm »

Inverse square rule applies to distance vs lux.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 02:58:29 pm »

Hi Brian, am I the Jeff you're looking for?  There are a few of us Jeffs here!  Have you looked into the Elation Fuze Washes?  I wouldn't say it's priced well under 1k, but the smaller Z120 model should be around that through a dealer with reasonable pricing.  No gobos of course, but it's hard to go wrong with a 7-55 degree zoom range!  As a disclaimer, I have yet to really see and drive one of these in person.  I want to say that maybe Tim or TJ has done an installation with them though, so if that's true maybe they can give a better comment on them...  If you're looking for a medium-sized wash light with a nice zoom range, good color mixing, and enough output to be worth its weight I'd probably start here.  While the beam's edge is defined, it's not a crisp edge like a "spot" or "profile" fixture can give. 

If you're okay giving up the color mixing and extreme zoom, something like a basic Intimidator can work too.  They're a little cheaper, but as always, the wrong tool at the right price is still the wrong tool!  The one nice selling point with a unit such as an Intimidator is that with motorized focus you should be able to get the right type of edge you're looking for.  I think if you shop yet another level up you get frost too, so that's yet one more tool to sculpt the beam with. 

There are also some 3-in-1 movers out there that can do the beam/wash/spot combination.  All the ones I know of that do this well are far beyond your budget though.  Good luck!
I'm not familiar with the Elation gear. I have heard good things about the Fuze Washes, but haven't seen them.  I own and use Chauvet Rogue R2 washes, which are slightly above your budget from a good dealer, but the smaller R1 washes would fit your budget easily and are probably adequate for brightness for you.  As Jeff said, all of these are wash fixtures, and will have somewhat of a soft edge to the beam, but that's pretty normal for the application you're suggesting and I don't think it's a problem.

The Intimidators that I have experienced are toys compared to the Chauvet Rogue washes in terms of output and color gamut.  They can be useful for effects, but are at least a class below the wash fixtures of similar price ranges.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 05:03:14 pm »

I'm not familiar with the Elation gear. I have heard good things about the Fuze Washes, but haven't seen them. 

Ah sorry, Mr. Weaver was the one I was thinking of - particularly from this thread here.

Either way, I'd agree that the Rogue R1 Wash should also be a strong contender here.  Both the Rogue and Fuze Series are a noticeable step up from fixtures like Intimidators and Inno Spot/Beam/Washes.  It might be worth getting a demo and quote on the Fuze washes, but I strongly suspect they'll still be above the 600-800 range.  Only a demo will tell you if they're worth saving up for.

It just really depends if you (Brian) want a dedicated wash light with strong output and good color production versus something with gobos and focus at the expense of color mixing...and this all comes down to application.  Can you accept watching a color wheel scroll through the rainbow while changing from one desired color to the next, or must it be a nice smooth "stage & studio" transition?  Also, most Bar/Club/DJ movers such as the Intimidators have the full gamut of color on their wheels, and not in a good way...  How often are you really going to use that neon pink or the Frankenstein green?  At least in my experience, maybe only 2 or 3 of the included colors will be friendly to stage washes - the others are useless or for special applications only.  I'd think you'll get far more mileage out of a wash light here, even though a true stage wash doesn't seem to be the intended application. 

One last thing to think about is whether the "pixel" look of some wash lights such as the Rogue Washes bothers you (or excites you), or if you want a more "traditional" look to the front of your fixtures.  Just more food for thought!   

Hi Jeff, yes! I usually see you have some good info to add regarding lighting.

Why thank you!  I really appreciate it.  Just trying to help others along, as so many have helped me along in my own journey! 
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James Feenstra

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 06:25:51 pm »

you should be able to find used martin mac 301s (or JB lighting A7s...same fixture) for under a grand per fixture these days

they don't mix a *perfect* white, being only RGB, but they're definitely reliable fixtures
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Graham Spice

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 11:13:34 am »

you should be able to find used martin mac 301s (or JB lighting A7s...same fixture) for under a grand per fixture these days

they don't mix a *perfect* white, being only RGB, but they're definitely reliable fixtures
Here are some used 301s for sale: https://www.usedlighting.com/29371/martin-mac-301-wash-led
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BrianHenry

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 12:48:45 pm »

Hi All:

Thank you for all the great feedback!

TJ, I just looked at the R1 briefly and I think it could be a strong contender. I would prefer to invest in a higher quality fixture. To be honest, the biggest selling point over the intimidator is it is significantly lighter.

Jeff, Yes, I think I should have been more clear on my application. I use 4 LED pars for front wash (and 8 in back), so these movers would be a step toward adding to some motion to the show, not simply providing my wash. I don't need super crisp beam edges (as much as I'd like that), but I just want to make sure the fixture isn't blasting light everywhere with no definition. When used as a wash, I'd like them to be able to highlight a performer on a tight stage, so I need some beam control. I think a fixture with adjustable beam would be great because I could then narrow the beam and use it as a bit of eye candy as well, although at the moment we are not using atmosphere.

Regarding color, gobos, etc, I don't really have a need for gobos, but then again I have never used them so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing. Regarding color, I don't need much in the way of mixing and I don't need very smooth transitions (although that wouldn't hurt). For these movers, I would use white, amber, blue or red 80% of the time. Occasionally magenta and cyan.

By pixel look, I assume you mean looking into the lens? Doesn't excite me nor does it bother me. I'm already over that since all my pars are the 7xLED type!

Graham/James, thanks, used Martins are tempting. I considered used fixtures, but at this point, I'd like to focus on new fixtures primarily due to warranty (Looks like Chauvet and Elation are 2 years). Since they have so many mechanical parts, I would value that protection.

Looks like I have a lot to think about.

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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 04:31:59 pm »

Jeff, Yes, I think I should have been more clear on my application. I use 4 LED pars for front wash (and 8 in back), so these movers would be a step toward adding to some motion to the show, not simply providing my wash. I don't need super crisp beam edges (as much as I'd like that), but I just want to make sure the fixture isn't blasting light everywhere with no definition. When used as a wash, I'd like them to be able to highlight a performer on a tight stage, so I need some beam control. I think a fixture with adjustable beam would be great because I could then narrow the beam and use it as a bit of eye candy as well, although at the moment we are not using atmosphere.

Regarding color, gobos, etc, I don't really have a need for gobos, but then again I have never used them so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing. Regarding color, I don't need much in the way of mixing and I don't need very smooth transitions (although that wouldn't hurt). For these movers, I would use white, amber, blue or red 80% of the time. Occasionally magenta and cyan.

By pixel look, I assume you mean looking into the lens? Doesn't excite me nor does it bother me. I'm already over that since all my pars are the 7xLED type!

Got it.  That's good to have some more details about the rest of your rig and that adding motion is one of your objectives too.  I understand what you mean about not wanting to blast light everywhere as well.  The difference between beam and field angles aside, a 10 degree beam is still a 10 degree beam, no matter which "type" of fixture it's being projected from.  Unfortunately, we do need to take into account beam vs field angle to get an idea of what the final output will look like.
 Considering the R1 Wash, you get an 8-30 degree beam angle with an 11-48 degree field angle.  In simplest terms, this means your zoomed-in look will be pretty tight and even whereas your zoomed-out look will show a bit of noticeable spill around the edges, given the 30 vs 48 degree difference.  How about the Fuze Z120?  It's advertised to have a 7 degree beam with 14 degree field when zoomed in.  Though we're talking trivial amounts here, I'd expect the R1 to "look" a little tighter here because it's beam/field angles are closer together than the Z120.  When zoomed out, however, the Z120 should deliver a 55 degree beam with 57 degree field...so this will be much more even and have better edge definition that the R1.  This is just numerical analysis though - it definitely doesn't take the place of seeing a demo in the real world!

Gobos are one of those things that really comes down to taste.  Aside from having stars and triangles scanning around the room, gobos can be used to add texture to a beam, both when viewed on a surface and when projected through atmosphere.  Watch any modern TV Game Show or Reality Show and you'll see what I mean.  Like everything else, it's just another tool you have to paint with.  While it'd be nice to have them, I'd personally peg them rather low on the desire list for this purchase.  That's understood that you don't necessarily need smooth color mixing either.  I will say though that once you have it, you'll never want to be without it!  It's nice to have literally millions of colors at your fingertips.  Some movers have replaceable colors, but otherwise you're still stuck with whatever is on the wheel. 

Yep, you got the "pixel look" right!  Sounds like this won't be an issue for you.  Given that some of my work is in theater, some directors can't stand that sort of lens system on a light.  They want the more typical Fresnel/Ellipsoidal look and not these "modern contraptions" distracting from the set... 

I considered used fixtures, but at this point, I'd like to focus on new fixtures primarily due to warranty (Looks like Chauvet and Elation are 2 years). Since they have so many mechanical parts, I would value that protection.
 
That is a whole other can of worms.  I don't blame you for wanting to buy new.  If you can afford it, that's generally what I recommend too.  Used movers can be a real bargain if you know your way around the insides of one, but they can also be frustrating and expensive to maintain.  Since we're on the topic of moving washes I'll add that I still maintain my inventory of High End Studio Beams (700w discharge CMY wash lights).  They're nearly 20 years old and came from the Big Apple Circus, complete with Popcorn and Advil still in their road cases.  This was a good investment for me seeing that equivalent LED wash lights are still emerging (and are very expensive), but you have to really do your homework when picking which specific units you're going to buy used, and from whom.  Hope all this helps!     
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lucy_wang

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 10:59:52 pm »

On amazon you may find many choices.
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BrianHenry

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 12:45:00 am »

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will look more closely at the 120Z. The small difference between the beam and field when zoomed out would be a good thing. The R1 is still a contender as I don't really need a super sharp cutoff. This all goes back to trying to see some of these in person. I will try to make that happen over the next month or so as I get closer to purchasing.

Yes, gobos are far down the list. If the right fixture comes with some, so much the better but it probably won't be a consideration in my final decision. What would be an example of a fixture with great color mixing that isn't too far out of my budget? I'm curious now about what I would be missing out on. Maybe I shouldn't open up that can of worms!

My existing wash lights are cheap. Some of ADJ Tri7s, some are monoprice RGBAWU, and some are very cheapo RGBW that are very surprisingly good. None have failed yet. I just wish I had more of a single fixture rather than a variety. This was a learning mistake, but a relatively cheap one. In the future, I plan to narrow my inventory, but since everything works well right now and I don't have any issues with color, I am going make more important upgrades first.

Regarding used fixtures, I am very mechanically inclined and could make repairs, but not really interested in the hassle and the increased risk of breakdown. That said, if the right thing came along at the right price, and "from" the right place as you say, I'd probably consider it.

So, I guess my strategy is to spend on the movers and stay pretty cheap on the pars. Time to do some homework. Thanks!
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 08:05:11 pm »

No worries!  Yeah, I'd definitely try to demo at least the R1 Wash and the 120Z.  While you're at it, try to demo as much as you can!  I'm rather spoiled by being only a few hours away from both a Chauvet and Elation show room, but just getting eyes on product can really be a game changer.  Many time I've walked into a demo expecting to buy one thing and walked out with something completely different!  That tank of gas or airplane ticket just saved me from messing up a 5-figure investment! 

If you're talking color mixing on mover, I'm still partial to CMY over LED.  Now that can be CMY with an LED light engine, but I like CMY because the dichroic wheels follow the same subtractive behavior that you get with gels in conventional lights.  At least to me, this appears less "cold" and "artificial" than the output from the average additive color mixing lights.  You can also always go darker both in color and output without weird things starting to happen.  Unfortunately fixtures such as these aren't cheap (several thousand dollars a piece).  I think there might be a few options starting in the 2-3k price bracket if buying new, but I don't believe they're LED...and even if they are, it'd be a couple hundred watt LED.  Subtractive mixing takes horsepower, especially for darker colors. 

I agree with trying to keep a rather narrow inventory, especially for bulk fixtures that see a lot of use.  Not only does this give you a number of deployment options, it also helps for keeping working spares and parts inventory down to a minimum.  I still think any of the fixtures you're shopping for will fit well with your existing inventory though. 

Good luck with the homework and let us know what you eventually settle on!  Have fun!
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BrianHenry

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Re: Wide beam angle movers that are "affordable"
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 01:49:42 am »

Thanks Jeff! Planning to make a decision in the next month or so. I still need to finish ironing out my migration to MPC before adding more complexity. One thing at a time, but this should be fun.
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