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Author Topic: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer  (Read 2540 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2017, 02:52:44 pm »

For me, 24 inputs is a big limitation. If it were 24 PER device, no problem, but a global limit of 24 channels is unfortunate. I know some of the 24 can be stems, but on a professional show, each person is going to want each of their own inputs and stems of the other players. I regularly could use 48 or more channels to allow the control that a pro player would want.

If DAL upped their game to double the channel count (at minimum) this would be a killer system.

True; IMO though if you're going past the 24 inputs (with mix-down busses from the board) then you're going to have a monitor board and not worry about things like that.

As far as smaller churches that want an aviom replacement that isn't super limiting I think its perfect. But maybe that's just my grievances airing themselves out. It solves my current problem, not everyone's...

Still a fantastic product IMO (on paper at least & for the price point).


The iPad/tablet systems used with a console are much less limiting.

True, there's a certain point where I wonder why do we have 'aviom' (insert brand of choice) mixers for the backline band when our iThingy's can do the same thing for them with the addition of (wait we already have the wireless switch, so... nothing?)

I could see the effect being less cables when using personal mixers, but now with dante enabled 'hot spots' its insanely easy to have headphone amps connected via a single cat5e/6 to the mixer.

I'm kinda re-thinking my 'solution' to the aviom madness now :P
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Don Davis

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2017, 05:01:22 pm »


Lastly, I agree with Tim's post a whole lot, but At the end of the day YOU are the only one who can decide what is best for you and your church. I just advise listening to people who've done it before and spending God's money wisely.

This for sure!

FWIW
If 24 channels meet your needs I recommend taking a hard look at the DAL stuff. Pretty easy to use on the first try.

The built in intercom comes in handy for musicians without vocal mics. The metronome can be set on any unit and can be shared by all if wanted. The aux-in feature is nice if someone wants to plug in an iphone and share a song or click track with the band. Everyone has control over if and how much they hear in their mix.

The built in ambient mics don't cut it on a loud stage, they clip pretty quickly.

The musicians I work with love the touch screen, EQ and FX options. One quirky thing about the channel EQ is that it is global so if you change the way your vocal sounds on your unit, it changes it for everyone. Not sure why they did it that way and not sure how big of deal it is.

You can "take over" anyone's mix from any of the units if someone is struggling then make changes for them. Kind of a handy feature.

There are a lot of features we don't use that often like being able to store personal mixes and group mixes in the units or on USB sticks, the ability to record your mix to a USB stick etc.

We started out using the analog interface but that was a PITA since we use wireless so we upgraded, the Dante is the way to go.

There are many good choices out there, none are perfect for everyone. We have no regrets about going with the DAL stuff.
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Charles Razzell

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 10:31:50 am »

This for sure!

FWIW
If 24 channels meet your needs I recommend taking a hard look at the DAL stuff. Pretty easy to use on the first try.

I agree. My conclusion is that if we go for a Dante-connected set of monitor mixers, the DAL solution is much better value for the money than the Aviom A320s. I watched a nice 10-minute video presentation over on Sweetwater's web site presented by Luke Vettel, Director of Sales at DAL, which really helped my understand the usability features, such as the "more me" knob.

I got a renewed appreciation of the value of having stereo channels available for sources that are naturally stereo, which is a feature the Aviom system provides, but the Elite-Core alternative does not.

The other thing I heard loud and clear from this thread is that I may be under-utilizing the value of the Dante system by not using it directly with Yamaha's MonitorMix on iPads or similar devices.

I also heard at least one voice that suggested the Yamaha TF3 was not a good choice of mixer around which to base our system. (To be honest, I would rather have chosen a Midas M32, and had Behringer P16-M boxes connected via Ultranet, but I don't always get what I want).

Thanks to all who replied on this thread for sharing your experience and knowledge.

Charles.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 12:48:31 pm »

BTW, a whole extra TF3 with a dante card is like 3000 bucks. It's cheaper than most of the personal mixers, and lets you dedicate a whole desk to monitoring. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I have our CL1 set up in the bands greenroom which is where we also hide the guitar amps. You don't need line of sight to the stage if you are controlling it with apps. Put the desk wherever you can.
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Chris Sieggen

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 02:07:12 pm »

Yamaha's monitor mix app is the way to go. When I took over here at our Church, we used Yamaha CL5's and the Aviom system for monitoring.

We had 2 different A360 systems running in parallel. The idea was, one for the singers and one for the band so they could have different inputs to monitor. That ended up being a bust because when you only have 16 slots to put things, you run out of space REAL quick. After many frustrating hours spent trying to get all the patching worked out, and MANY messed up patches, the former techs just decided to run the same inputs to each system to keep things straight, and easy to troubleshoot. This meant comprimises were made to fit everything into 16 slots.

If you think you'll be able to wrangle "extra" inputs on the 360 system, you are sorely mistaken. Having stereo inputs only lets you run things like keyboards into an aviom channel. If you try to combine other things onto a stereo channel you'll run into a situation where one guy wants to hear something and another guy doesn't and you'll have to break those two inputs out of stereo and give them their own channel on the aviom just for discreet control. It's so frustrating, and it's a giant time waster.

If your band has more than 12-14 inputs to the mixer, you need to look beyond any thing that is a 16 channel device. Remember that your band will want to hear things like Click, tracks, video content, and the preacher too. You can't forget these things, and they will cut into your channel count in the monitors.


When I took over the Avioms were the first thing on my kill list. I put another console in the band's green room just for monitoring. The Green room also houses the audio rack where all my in/out is so it makes sense to put it there. The band runs their own mixes via phone apps. I have 4 IEM units for the singers and the band is all wired ears using the Studio Technologies Model 362 Dante enabled headphone amp. This solution has been praised by the band members as a huge improvement in both quality and quantity. For the first time they are able to put EVERY input into their ears, and they all say that the quality is better.


If I were you, I'd abandon the search for a 3rd party monitor solution when Yamaha has already done the work for you, and you've already paid for it in the purchase price of the console....

Tim, I am very intrigued by your set up and would love to know a bit more...mainly your signal and cable layout for the above system.

In one worship venue, we are currently using a TF3 and our old Rapco 24 x 4 analog snake. We run a MONO MAINS out (into a DriveRack) and use the remaining three sends for three of our wedge monitor mixes, then I use a couple of XLR turn arounds to use channels 23/24 for two more monitor mixes. So, its all currently analog, four of the mixes run a stage wedge and we have a small Peavey headphone amp to run the drummers ears.

I LOVE the idea of using the Yamaha Monitor Mix app for our musicians. That way all channels are available and the the labeling follows their display. They could begin to use it now just to make their own adjustments without having our sound guy (me) around all the time.

NOW, Thinking ahead to setting up an in ear system, tell me more about adding the Dante card in the TF3, a Dante network near the stage to run the Studio Technologies Dante headphone amps and being able to take full advantage of the Aux Sends on the TF3.

I was thinking a clean set up that wouldn't require our musicians to use their cel phones would be having the Studio Tech headphone amp and a used iPad Mini at each station. I am only getting a little lost as to which Dante stage box I would need with enough channels and sends to accommodate 16 to 24 input channels and up to six musician stations, especially if one or two (or maybe all eventually) would want stereo in ears. Additionally, do the Studio tech headphone amps power up from a main Dante network somewhere and are they assignable to a specific aux channel?

This idea is intriguing, as we may explore a console upgrade in our other worship venue, and if this is an elegant solution, could be easily repeated in the second venue as we think about upgrading.   
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2017, 02:20:53 pm »

http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m362.html

These things run on POE. You'd need a POE ethernet switch somewhere close to the stage and run cat5 from the switch to the Model 362's.

In the Dante controller software you can name and address each of the 362's as to what mix they are. After that it doesn't matter where you plug them in, they recieve the same mix anywhere on the network. Thats one of the beauties of Dante.

I've never used a TF console. But essentially, in Dante, you assign a stereo mix out to a dante output, the. Tell the 362 to "listen" to that dante channel(s) and voila. It works. Add a wifi AP to the TF and get the iPad connected to the console. Now you can mix the iems remotely.

I would caution against using ipads for the musicians though. The ipad can get switched around to different mixes pretty easy. I've had a drummer controlling a singer's mix by accident before. The phone apps get locked in to 1 mix when you start the app. Much easier to use it this way for both the techs and the musicians.
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Chris Sieggen

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 02:57:55 pm »

http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m362.html

These things run on POE. You'd need a POE ethernet switch somewhere close to the stage and run cat5 from the switch to the Model 362's.

In the Dante controller software you can name and address each of the 362's as to what mix they are. After that it doesn't matter where you plug them in, they recieve the same mix anywhere on the network. Thats one of the beauties of Dante.

I've never used a TF console. But essentially, in Dante, you assign a stereo mix out to a dante output, the. Tell the 362 to "listen" to that dante channel(s) and voila. It works. Add a wifi AP to the TF and get the iPad connected to the console. Now you can mix the iems remotely.

I would caution against using ipads for the musicians though. The ipad can get switched around to different mixes pretty easy. I've had a drummer controlling a singer's mix by accident before. The phone apps get locked in to 1 mix when you start the app. Much easier to use it this way for both the techs and the musicians.

Tim,

Thank you! This is super helpful and kind of exciting to think of the possibilities. Good call on the iPads. I just know for some people, iPhone and iTouch interfaces are a little tiny for some folks. Used iTouches should work as well. I currently have the an AP for my iPad as I mix and work with the musicians on stage. So I am good there. The Studio tech amps look great. How do they sound?

So, last question...Let's say I get the Tio1608 (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Tio1608D, giving me 16 inputs and 8 sends over Dante) where/how do I patch an 8 channel POE router into the Dante on the Tio? Will I have access to the Dante channels on the secondary port? That's the only part of this equation that's kinda throwing me.

Thank you again for your help and expertise.

Chris
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2017, 04:20:24 pm »

Think of Dante devices like computers on a network. It really doesn't care where you plug in to the network. It has an IP address and thats how it gets signal from/to the console.

I have a netgear switch with 8 POE ports and 8 regular ports. I habe my stage boxes and 362's plugged into that for "signal". The FOH board is on a different switch on another part of our network.


The Model 362 headphone amps are fantastic. The band has all commented on how much better they sound than the avioms they replaced.
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Chris Sieggen

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2017, 08:47:31 pm »

Think of Dante devices like computers on a network. It really doesn't care where you plug in to the network. It has an IP address and thats how it gets signal from/to the console.

I have a netgear switch with 8 POE ports and 8 regular ports. I habe my stage boxes and 362's plugged into that for "signal". The FOH board is on a different switch on another part of our network.


The Model 362 headphone amps are fantastic. The band has all commented on how much better they sound than the avioms they replaced.

That's kind of what I thought. So, since the Dante in the TF3 has a primary and secondary network out, I assume one would run the Tio1608 off of the primary network out and use the secondary to establish the monitor network and just configure the Dante to use the aux sends and assign the headphone module to hear whatever aux send you want it to.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2017, 10:06:04 pm »

That's kind of what I thought. So, since the Dante in the TF3 has a primary and secondary network out, I assume one would run the Tio1608 off of the primary network out and use the secondary to establish the monitor network and just configure the Dante to use the aux sends and assign the headphone module to hear whatever aux send you want it to.

No. Everything goes on the primary network. Any device which also has a secondary network also goes on the secondary network. You do not need to use the secondary network, but it provides a level of redundancy. The secondary network is completely separate, with a second set of switches.

Mac
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