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Author Topic: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer  (Read 1176 times)

Don Davis

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 05:04:19 pm »

Thanks, I did check it out. It looks like a good solution, but the pricing may be an issue since we are working on a fixed budget for this purchase without much wiggle room. I was very intrigued by their products though, and like the idea of two mixes on one box to reduce stage clutter.

Charles.

We've been using the Digital Audio Lab units for a couple of years now and love them. Most visiting performers have commented they prefer them to the Aviom units. We use a TF5 with the Dante card and Dante unit for the LiveMix units. The 24 channel count is nice.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 01:53:20 am »

Anyone used both the DAL and A&H products and care to Pro/Con them? I thought the A&H was the best product out there for Dante networks, but had not heard of the DAL stuff...
At first glance, it seems like the DAL stuff is more pricey with lower channel count and requires more pieces? However, the intercom function looks interesting.
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brian maddox

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 10:22:15 am »

Anyone used both the DAL and A&H products and care to Pro/Con them? I thought the A&H was the best product out there for Dante networks, but had not heard of the DAL stuff...
At first glance, it seems like the DAL stuff is more pricey with lower channel count and requires more pieces? However, the intercom function looks interesting.

I just saw the Intercom Feature.  That's actually rather huge.  In using IEMs wth a church band, communicating during rehearsals was one of the toughest things.  Constantly taking an IEM in and out is a pain and helps lead to people not wanting to use IEMs, which can be a pretty big issue with church volunteer groups.  Anything that makes the system less convenient becomes a whining point to try to go back to wedges.

About 5 years ago i designed a very complicated Personal Mix system for our band and including some type of intercom system was a big part of that design.  The DAL system deserves a good second look for this reason alone.

And yeah, there are workarounds to this with other systems.  But the simplicity of a dedicated button that you push and talk is hard to beat.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 12:19:10 pm by brian maddox »
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 12:10:21 pm »

It would be great to know what specifically are the failings of the Aviom A320 that are overcome by the A&H boxes. Sound quality? Robustness? Ease of use?

Charles.

Sorry was at work, you deserve an explanation :P

My thoughts on all of this. My experiences, YMMV [your mileage may very].

From my perspective of being the technical director for a multi-site & venue church (all with aviom and wireless IEM's, running click & track), owning my own company using A&H QU series gear and having the same bands play on both the church's stage and my stage.

---------------

We have used the older A16 and now the newer 320's.

The A16's are slowly breaking, though we've been using them for 5ish years I think?
-the nobs jitter the volume.
-not enough gain structure capabilities
-low sound quality (decent enough, but not great)
-low ch count (only 16, even having ST pairs on the 320 isn't helpful as it still uses up a button)
-ease of use is both ways, easy to use (when working) for a band guy; not easy to use as far as trying to set everything up because you have to limit yourself and combine things into auxes to send to the avioms. and you have to printout your own scribble strips.
-same price (expensive, compared to the feature rich A&H or DAL or other)

The 320's are nicer but still far from perfect and suffer from the same gain structure issues, sound quality, low ch count, ease of use, etc.

What Aviom does have is simplicity in that there's few options of configuration or a band guy to mess it up, the problem is band members aren't sound guys and rarely know what to do if its broke, so this simplicity hurts in the long run, and i'll explain why later.

---------------

A&H ME-1; I'll lead this with the fact that the band never really comments on them being good, but they don't complain whereas they do complain about Avioms all the time. Think what you will of that.

-great sound quality & loud
-2 headphone outputs (you can walk up plug your headphones in and fix their mix for them
-balanced out for a wireless setup
-40ch count; so 24/32 input band and then groups for talkback and other things
-ease of use is a little less as far as the groups (because there isn't 40 buttons, just 16)
-screen isn't as transparent as the DAL products (i'm really seeing these as a fantastic alternative to Aviom)

---------------

DAL gear (new to me, very neat)
-I like the talkback feature of DAL, but the input shouldn't be 1/8" it should be xlr for a mic; whatever...
-24 inputs is great, not the 40 of A&H, but you really just need a 'few' more from the aviom's 16.

---------------

Lastly, I agree with Tim's post a whole lot, but At the end of the day YOU are the only one who can decide what is best for you and your church. I just advise listening to people who've done it before and spending God's money wisely.

Yamaha's monitor mix app is the way to go.

When I took over here at our Church, we used Yamaha CL5's and the Aviom system for monitoring. We had 2 different A360 systems running in parallel.

If I were you, I'd abandon the search for a 3rd party monitor solution when Yamaha has already done the work for you, and you've already paid for it in the purchase price of the console....

Tim got rid of Avioms as they were unnecessary, even though they were the better A360 system!

Anyone used both the DAL and A&H products and care to Pro/Con them? I thought the A&H was the best product out there for Dante networks, but had not heard of the DAL stuff...
At first glance, it seems like the DAL stuff is more pricey with lower channel count and requires more pieces? However, the intercom function looks interesting.

Indeed, never heard of DAL; but they seem to be a huge contender with those advanced features. ESPECIALLY at the price point. There is practically no reason to go with an aviom system when the DAL is same price.

Then combine the fact that that is street price; get a good dealer like Mike Pyle and you're set.

---------------

Aviom 6mix $3.5k
Aviom A320 6mix link to B&H

DAL 8mix $4.2k
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/287955-Livemix-Digital-Bundle

A&H Me-1 8 mix system is a premium @ ~5k (depending on dealer, theres room for friends to get you great pricing ;) )
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 12:20:50 pm »

-I like the talkback feature of DAL, but the input shouldn't be 1/8" it should be xlr for a mic; whatever...
Pretty sure the 3.5mm is for a local iPod/iPhone/MP3 player connection. I expect the intercom uses a built-in mic.
Another thing that's interesting is that there's a local metronome in each piece, so it's not just the drummer that can control the click. I see this a lot in rehearsals "can I hear the tempo of such and such"... Nice (but not a deal breaker) to allow each person to have their own metronome control.
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-Andy

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 12:22:58 pm »

Hey everyone, new forum member here.

My church is about to order a new Yamaha TF3 digital and plans to replace the on-stage personal mixer boxes (which have basically died at this point) with new ones.  We will have a Dante card in the TF3 mixer, and will use two digital snakes on stage (TIO-1608Ds).

All relevant thoughts welcome.

Charles.

Not sure if this is a releeant thought. But i've been mixing on the TF series for a 6mo regularly and off/on since their inception.

I'm not sure where you're at with the purchasing process and you might have already made the decision well informed and are happy with the board.

But I hate it. Every day I mix on it I hate it.

The number of silly/stupid limitations is insane. I'd rather have an X32 any day, or QU32, M32, etc; heck i'd rather have a Mackie DL32R...

But that could just be me and my personality, plenty of people use it and it is a decent board for its capabilities.

Perhaps i'm just young, but my main annoyance is its slow. The reaction times of everything is slow.

To sum things up, coming from mixing on a M7CL regularly I was expecting some of the features to trickle down into this board because the X32 made cheap digital consoles with insane features at a low price point possible. Not saying they need every bell and whistle; but I was expecting a bit more with this board at the (original) price point of 5k.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 12:25:13 pm »

Pretty sure the 3.5mm is for a local iPod/iPhone/MP3 player connection. I expect the intercom uses a built-in mic.
Another thing that's interesting is that there's a local metronome in each piece, so it's not just the drummer that can control the click. I see this a lot in rehearsals "can I hear the tempo of such and such"... Nice (but not a deal breaker) to allow each person to have their own metronome control.

Ahh that makes way more sense. I just skimmed the website (so everyone take my comments about Digital Audio Labs with a grain of salt). Reading manual now though :)

That's kinda cool, I wonder if you can sync between units? (turns out its global by default)

Okay, so after just reading the quick start guides; this is simply the best system for churches hands down.

It is the perfect balance between capabilities, ease of use, expand-ability, etc.
The touch screen is perfect for band guys/gals; has remote mixing, so setup a solo in the booth and fix their ears remotely, all the other features... its perfect in every way (including price)... haha ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 12:36:54 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 12:57:11 pm »

For me, 24 inputs is a big limitation. If it were 24 PER device, no problem, but a global limit of 24 channels is unfortunate. I know some of the 24 can be stems, but on a professional show, each person is going to want each of their own inputs and stems of the other players. I regularly could use 48 or more channels to allow the control that a pro player would want.
The iPad/tablet systems used with a console are much less limiting.
If DAL upped their game to double the channel count (at minimum) this would be a killer system.
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-Andy

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brian maddox

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 01:02:02 pm »

For me, 24 inputs is a big limitation. If it were 24 PER device, no problem, but a global limit of 24 channels is unfortunate....

That is one thing i do like about the A360 system from Aviom.  You only get 16 Mono or Stereo channels, but you get to pick from up to 64 sources.  That means everybody on stage can have a completely different set of inputs, which can be quite powerful while still maintaining some simplicity in the system.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Personal monitor system for a Yamaha TF3 digital mixer
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2017, 01:53:51 pm »

That is one thing i do like about the A360 system from Aviom.  You only get 16 Mono or Stereo channels, but you get to pick from up to 64 sources.  That means everybody on stage can have a completely different set of inputs, which can be quite powerful while still maintaining some simplicity in the system.

It's still not enough for a medium sized band. Our drums take up 11 channels on the board (click included). The overheads could be combined into a stereo channel, so that means 10 "slots" on the aviom is used just for drums (pretend this is the drummers mix). Is he supposed to use the remaining 6 slots to get everything else he needs? Probably not, so that means I have to burn at least one mix bus to combine some things for him.

Repeat this process for all 8-10 people in the band and pretty soon you have used up a TON of resources just for iems. And, it's STILL a comprimise.

Also it is a patching nightmare. You have to set up direct outs AND mix outs from the console onto the dante stream out of the desk. Patch that dante stream into the A360 system. Then patch that mishmash of dante channels into each individual a360 mixer in different configurations. Freaking nightmare...

The best part of this is right as you have it working solid, the worship leader is going to bring in a guest vocalist and a horn section. What do you do then???
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