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[chris harwood]

Title says it.  about 1/4 the cost of the Aviom and Furman 16 channel units.

$200 for mixer and $250 for the distribution unit.   

Man, I hate Behringer stuff though.  Can't recall a working 5 year old piece of equipment.

Are they going to be the "new Ibanez" company...  Finally getting some respect.

[Walt Jaquith]

I've actually never had a piece of Behringer equipment die on me.  Don't get me wrong; I think I'm very lucky, and am long past the point where I'm buying much in that class, but Behringer offers really significant bang for the buck in budget gear.  As for the P16-M, I'm not sure.  I'm glad they made it; someone needed to come along and give the big players a slap up alongside the head.  Aviom is good gear of course, but their prices are just insulting.  It's not that hard, really.  A/D converters are pretty well traveled ground, and ditto for the rest of the system, both on the analong and digital ends.  The Behringer setup is actually affordable, and I bet they sell a ton of them.  I hadn't tracked Behringer gear for a while, and wasn't aware that they'd come out with a digital monitor system. 

[chris harwood]

yes, I will admit Behringer offers some equipment at a price point that allows many to jump into the game.  $100 mixers, etc.
I can see this really taking off in HOW setups, mainly for the price point... either good or bad. 

Not sure if "serious" setups would feel the need to save a couple pennies, but as sorry a state as it is, the Church really seems to lean towards budget gear much of the time.   But I understand stewardship as well.

[chuck clark]

I hate to say it but, I've had 3 Behringer x-overs fail on me....IN A ROW!  I don't even look at it anymore.
Buy the extended full coverage warranty every time if you must go B-ringer cheap. Good luck.
Chuck

[Walt Jaquith]

Anytime you buy in the price basement you are definitely in YMMV territory.  I went and checked out the Behringer setup.  It's tempting; the savings is considerable over Aviom.  But...not until it at least has a track record.  Probably not even then.

[Matthias Heitzer]

Behringer build their own factory ("Behringer City") to ensure a constant quality (i don't want to judge how high it is).
Before, they had to rely on oem manufacturers, who, of course, wanted make as much profit as possible and skimped on parts quality and quality control.
Some speak of freight containers full of lemons.

Further, Behringer, Midas and Klark are all part of the "Music Group", so we can assume some kind of technolog transfer between the subcompanies.

Behringer had a pretty good digital mixer some time ago, but the production had to be stopped because some vital parts (the dsp if i remember correctly) were no longer available because of RohS.
It looked similar to a Yamaha 01V, but had more features.

A lot of companies have outsourced their production to China or other asian countries or at least buy components there.

Napoleon Bonaparte said: "If China awakes, the world will tremble."
Well, that was some time ago, but the combination of the Chinese assiduity and the extent of their resources is still a reason to make us shiver.


I've got a few 15+ years old behinger devices that still work fine.
Some old gates got problems with their bypass Relais after ~10 years.

Of course, i have been disappointed by some of their products, but even then it was more a design/function than a reliability problem. I simply have no use for a Di that creates more noise than an unbalanced connection from stage to Console.
And i also don't like EQs that do not sound neutral when set to "flat".
A near church has got a few Behringer Mics, they have so bad handlingnoise, they aren't even good for talkback.

[Brad Weber]

Title says it.  about 1/4 the cost of the Aviom and Furman 16 channel units.

$200 for mixer and $250 for the distribution unit.

Is this an actual product?  Has somebody had their hands on some units?  The related information on the Behringer web site seems limited to marketing type information with no technical data or manual available, which makes me wonder if this is something actually available.

Are they going to be the "new Ibanez" company...  Finally getting some respect.

At least for me, Behringer's past business practices of many years makes respect likely unobtainable and perhaps less disdain would be more accurate.

[Mike Spitzer]

I asked around and can't find anybody using these things, yet. Basically, we've all been burned by Behringer in the past. Some of us a lot (I will say I have a pair of B1520's I bought for a song a few years ago that are 5 or 6 years old and working great, though). In general, I've been very unhappy with their quality.

That said, the P16-M is at a price point that's hard to ignore, especially compared to the Avioms which have a proven track record. As far as I can tell, everybody's just waiting for somebody else to buy them, but nobody's willing to beta test them, so to speak.

If you're serious about looking at them, they're cheap enough that you could buy an extra module or two for backup in case of a failure. Then, make sure you have some floor wedges available in case of an emergency if the distributer fails.

I'll also add that on the Behringer equipment I've had that failed under warranty, the service was very easy and quick. If something fails on Sunday, you shouldn't have any trouble having it replaced by the next service.

-mS

[Walt Jaquith]

That's the other thing that kind of spooked me; very few places seem to be carrying this gear yet.  It's listed on Full Compass' site..."usually ships in 3-4 weeks"   That tells me they don't really have them.  Behringer also isn't making a big deal out of them on their website; you have to kind of hunt for them.  So either it's so new it hasn't hit the distribution chain, or it's going to be like the digital mixer that Matthias mentioned; you can read all about it...but you can't actually buy one.  Time will tell, I guess.

[John Roberts {JR}]

Behringer build their own factory ("Behringer City") to ensure a constant quality (i don't want to judge how high it is).

They built their factory complex away from the other established factories to attract cheap labor. Just smart business.

Before, they had to rely on oem manufacturers, who, of course, wanted make as much profit as possible and skimped on parts quality and quality control.

I actually worked with one of those OEMs, and the customer specifies what parts are used. The parts used are not part of the OEM's profit which is made purely for assembling those parts into assemblies. I have heard reports of entire runs with high reject rates due to sub standard parts specified by "the customer", an unfortunate situation for both customer and OEM.

We always enjoyed good results from that same OEM.

Some speak of freight containers full of lemons.

No OEM contract manufacturer can stay in business if all they do is make products that don't work. The customer routinely places a few of their own people inside the OEM, or visits them, to insure process and procedures are followed. Quality is largely influenced by the customer's attention to detail, while I have been inside ISO-9000 Chinese factories 15 years ago.   

Further, Behringer, Midas and Klark are all part of the "Music Group", so we can assume some kind of technolog transfer between the subcompanies.

You know what they say about assuming, but it is a fact that Behringer has grown so large and profitable they could purchase several formerly well respected pro audio brands.

Behringer had a pretty good digital mixer some time ago, but the production had to be stopped because some vital parts (the dsp if i remember correctly) were no longer available because of RohS.
It looked similar to a Yamaha 01V, but had more features.

A lot of companies have outsourced their production to China or other asian countries or at least buy components there.

The majority of electronic components used today by everybody come from China or similar low labor cost regions. Most mainstream companies have had to shift at least part of their production there to remain competitive against aggressive pricing world-wide, not just for the US market who was late to embrace Chinese built products. 

Napoleon Bonaparte said: "If China awakes, the world will tremble."
Well, that was some time ago, but the combination of the Chinese assiduity and the extent of their resources is still a reason to make us shiver.

China has a very old and interesting culture. Which would be of interest regarding Chinese brands.

I've got a few 15+ years old behinger devices that still work fine.
Some old gates got problems with their bypass Relais after ~10 years.

If you go back a little further Behringer rack products were once built in Europe.

Of course, i have been disappointed by some of their products, but even then it was more a design/function than a reliability problem. I simply have no use for a Di that creates more noise than an unbalanced connection from stage to Console.
And i also don't like EQs that do not sound neutral when set to "flat".
A near church has got a few Behringer Mics, they have so bad handlingnoise, they aren't even good for talkback.

The products are clearly designed to be inexpensive. Whether they are a good value or just too cheap to be useful, depends on how demanding your application, and how critical you are. It is a good idea to listen to the experience of others with similar needs, regarding any given model. 

JR

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Title says it.  about 1/4 the cost of the Aviom and Furman 16 channel units.

$200 for mixer and $250 for the distribution unit.   

Man, I hate Behringer stuff though.  Can't recall a working 5 year old piece of equipment.

I can look around my media booth and also check my equipment room and see quite a few pieces of > 5 year old Behringer equipment that takes a licking and still keeps ticking.   Small mixers, direct boxes, digital interfaces, line mixers, DAs, crossovers, parametric eqs, power amps, etc., etc..

In contrast every piece of Mackie equipment the church has owned (a 32 ch console and a 250 wpc power amp) have totally failed, though 2 items is well short of a statistically significant sample. 

As far as these new personal mixer products go, I was always of the opinion that at current price/performance levels, our Aviom system was a little salty for what it is.  But, nobody wants to send it back! ;-)

Let's see what a little more competition can do! 

Note that there seems to be no Mini-Yagdi card to slip into your Yamaha digital mixer to drive this system, like there is for the Aviom. That right there is a big trouble saver.  I see that there are 2 ADAT inputs, though.

Of course the natural home for these Behringer personal monitor boxes is the yet-to-be released X32 console.

Are they going to be the "new Ibanez" company...  Finally getting some respect.

Some of us we've had respect for Behringer for what they do well, for decades.  My first Behringer product was a digital graphic eq that lasted for about a dozen years.  For the price, still a heck of a deal.

Every once in a while Behringer stumbles and falls like they did with the DCX 2496 crossover a few years back. But, they seem to stand behind their gear reasonbly well, and pick themselves up and carry on.  I've heard of no problems with recent DCX 2496s.

Speaking of the DCX 2496, it seems to be getting a bit long in the tooth... I can visualize a $49.95 version of it implemented with  ARM multi-processors. ;-)

[Matthias Heitzer]

Behringer build their own factory ("Behringer City") to ensure a constant quality (i don't want to judge how high it is).

They built their factory complex away from the other established factories to attract cheap labor. Just smart business.

Before, they had to rely on oem manufacturers, who, of course, wanted make as much profit as possible and skimped on parts quality and quality control.

I actually worked with one of those OEMs, and the customer specifies what parts are used. The parts used are not part of the OEM's profit which is made purely for assembling those parts into assemblies. I have heard reports of entire runs with high reject rates due to sub standard parts specified by "the customer", an unfortunate situation for both customer and OEM.

We always enjoyed good results from that same OEM.

Some speak of freight containers full of lemons.

No OEM contract manufacturer can stay in business if all they do is make products that don't work. The customer routinely places a few of their own people inside the OEM, or visits them, to insure process and procedures are followed. Quality is largely influenced by the customer's attention to detail, while I have been inside ISO-9000 Chinese factories 15 years ago.   

Alway sgood to hear the other side of a thing.
(If we allow a little bit of Chinese wisdom, there is a third side that none of us sees. I wonder what that may be....)




After "Behringer bought Midas" it seemed to be only a matter of time until a new digital behringer mixer is launched.

I personally am curious about this new system. Digital stagebox (announced but not even a CAD drawing yet) + physical inputs at the console , surface that somewhat reminds me of an iLive (well, soundcraft compact also does..) and the PM system this thread is about.  If the components are reliable, it could be great solution for churches. Every part for itself is nothing extraordinary, but the combination of the devices and their low prices can make it attractive. If there are enough filter options, the 6 matrix buses could even replace the system controller.

[John Roberts {JR}]

Alway sgood to hear the other side of a thing.
(If we allow a little bit of Chinese wisdom, there is a third side that none of us sees. I wonder what that may be....)

There is a chinese parable about three brothers (three doctors), but that is probably not what you are thinking of.  Perhaps the Japanese concept of "unspoken truths"? There's the stated truth and then the "real" truth. 

After "Behringer bought Midas" it seemed to be only a matter of time until a new digital behringer mixer is launched.

The calculus when a company like Behringer buys a company like Midas, should not be to devalue the Midas brand and therefore their investment by increasing competition from below. If anything they should work to reduce costs and increase profits at Midas thanks to their better economy of scale in purchasing and manufacturing. The technology and engineering degree of difficulty to design an inexpensive product that doesn't suck is much harder than making an expensive product that doesn't suck. It isn't clear to me who will be teaching whom. 

It may be difficult to resist selling similar digital platforms based on the same underlying technology, through both companies only differentiated by brand. This will eventually erode the Midas brand image, but they probably bought it for a good price. The WIN/lose (larger win than loss) math probably favors such an approach eventually.   

Of course I could be completely wrong..

JR

I personally am curious about this new system. Digital stagebox (announced but not even a CAD drawing yet) + physical inputs at the console , surface that somewhat reminds me of an iLive (well, soundcraft compact also does..) and the PM system this thread is about.  If the components are reliable, it could be great solution for churches. Every part for itself is nothing extraordinary, but the combination of the devices and their low prices can make it attractive. If there are enough filter options, the 6 matrix buses could even replace the system controller.

[Matthias Heitzer]

Alway sgood to hear the other side of a thing.
(If we allow a little bit of Chinese wisdom, there is a third side that none of us sees. I wonder what that may be....)

There is a chinese parable about three brothers (three doctors), but that is probably not what you are thinking of.  Perhaps the Japanese concept of "unspoken truths"? There's the stated truth and then the "real" truth. 

Everything has three sides: the one that you see, the one that i see, and one that none of us sees .

It just got stuck in my head because it seems more realsitic than the western proverbial "two sides of a coin"


After "Behringer bought Midas" it seemed to be only a matter of time until a new digital behringer mixer is launched.

The calculus when a company like Behringer buys a company like Midas, should not be to devalue the Midas brand and therefore their investment by increasing competition from below. If anything they should work to reduce costs and increase profits at Midas thanks to their better economy of scale in purchasing and manufacturing. The technology and engineering degree of difficulty to design an inexpensive product that doesn't suck is much harder than making an expensive product that doesn't suck. It isn't clear to me who will be teaching whom. 

It may be difficult to resist selling similar digital platforms based on the same underlying technology, through both companies only differentiated by brand. This will eventually erode the Midas brand image, but they probably bought it for a good price. The WIN/lose (larger win than loss) math probably favors such an approach eventually.   
[/quote]

Behringer already advertises with "KLARK TEKNIK’s SuperMAC networking capability" and "high-end simulations of famous outboard gear such as KLARK TEKNIK DN780"


Perhaps the've chosen a similiar route as allen&heath. Similar systems in different price ranges, mostly divided by the flexibility,
but with a much broader Canyon in between...
From the information available, I could imagine that the x32 has strict limitations concerning aux sends and other outputs.
If has the output options of a Gl2400 or GB4/8, it is already restricted to a small market (small not in numbers but in the budget available) Even if it's "inner values" would be on par with Midas Pro or XL8, it simply would not be an option if it doesn't have enough Aux sends (or whatever they are called these days...)

Perhaps the x32 will have a similar future as the Mackie tt24, perhaps it's the new 01V.

Let's see what happens, i hope it won't end like the myth about King Midas.

[Matt Samudio]

Title says it.  about 1/4 the cost of the Aviom and Furman 16 channel units.

$200 for mixer and $250 for the distribution unit.   

Man, I hate Behringer stuff though.  Can't recall a working 5 year old piece of equipment.

Are they going to be the "new Ibanez" company...  Finally getting some respect.

After reading through some of this thread, I thought I could possibly provide some input ...

I understand the reservations about Behringer quality ... I've used alot of Behringer gear, and have certainly experienced some "stinkers" in the bunch.  I have also, however, had some good luck with Behringer pieces, as well.  For one example, I've reached a point of reasonable confidence in the Composer Pro, as I've had no trouble with any of the many I've bought (though I did see a friend have some trouble with his - not sure if there was abuse involved or not).  I've had exemplary experience with the Behringer multi-com pro, multi-gate pro, and ultra-drive pro.  The only thing I've had rather disappointing experiences with are the cheaper mixers.

I've become excited about the X32 and P16 lines, and I've purchased a X32 Rack, a P16-D, a P16-I, and 4 P16-M's.  I haven't received them yet, but I should get the P16-I and P16-M's this week, and I'll make a point of posting back here with impressions and results.

FYI - Sweetwater has the P16-I and P16-M's in stock for immediate shipment, and the X32 Rack + P16-D is going to be available sometime around early Oct, so the rep says.

[Mac Kerr]

I thought I could possibly provide some input ...

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac

[Brad Weber]

FYI - Sweetwater has the P16-I and P16-M's in stock for immediate shipment, and the X32 Rack + P16-D is going to be available sometime around early Oct, so the rep says.

Sweetwater shows the P16-D, P16-I and P16-M as all currently being in stock, but then the original discussion was almost 2-1/2 years ago.

[djpraise3]

We have had the 32x with p16ms for about a year now at our church we upgraded from a 32 channel mackie board and it is a worlds difference! We love it. Some cons with the p16s is if you daisy chain all the monitors you can have up to 7 total, the last one in the chain cuts in and out. We think its because we don't have the distributor other than that really powerful board.

[Mac Kerr]

We have had the 32x with p16ms for about a year

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Sweetwater shows the P16-D, P16-I and P16-M as all currently being in stock, but then the original discussion was almost 2-1/2 years ago.

That timeline sounds about right for Behringer - maybe even a little sooner than their average product.

[Jared Koopman]

The P16's actually work quite well, at least for us. I prefer them over Aviom honestly (I have no tried the new Aviom stuff tho). We use them with the X32 so I have no idea how well the Behringer P16i works with other systems.

[Irvin Pribadi]

I have the P-16 distributor and 4 personal consoles daisy chained.
I've had them for almost a year now used weekly at my church.

No issues so far, I can say they are slightly on the cheap side:
1. Knobs have inconsistent physical resistance when turning them
2. One or two buttons are a bit sticky; you gotta press them real deep before functioning

Overall I'm still very pleased as the functionality is great at that killer price.
IMO over past 7-8 years using various Behringer stuff: EQ, compressor, xover and now personal monitors, overall they're good: great design, great functionality, with some reliability issues.

Example is I've had two FBQ2496 feedback destroyers (I used them as a dual 20ch parametric EQs) go out on me due to overload and feedbacks. Got both of them replaced under warranty.
Behringer products lack the robustness of higher end brands but when carefully used they perform very well.

[John Simeon]

Listen man...
I have read folks bashing this board and it's "Aviom" style personal monitors.  I ended up buying a handful of them along with the X32 after using them at a conference.  Stuff works great for the price paid.  The Behringer people are also pretty helpful in setting everything up on their 800 number.  People are comparing this system to 10,000 dollar boards.  Of course it's not gonna measure up.  Let's get real. This thing has replaced all my compressors, my Parametric eq's, Graphic Eq's, effects processors ect.... for under 2,500 a DIGITAL BOARD with personal in ear style monitors for under 200 bucks?  Sorry for the rant...ha ha

They work great.  They have a built in EQ that I wouldn't give an award to, and it is a tad bit confusing at first, but for $200 it's a no brainer.  Just remember that for JUST the Aviom system, your looking at about 5g's for everything (from my research).... Oh yeah, and this setup replaced an Allen and Heath.  I like it a little better.   Just my .02 

[Keith Shannon]

Is this an actual product?  Has somebody had their hands on some units?  The related information on the Behringer web site seems limited to marketing type information with no technical data or manual available, which makes me wonder if this is something actually available.
At least for me, Behringer's past business practices of many years makes respect likely unobtainable and perhaps less disdain would be more accurate.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P16M

Marked in stock, looks real enough.

Now, the prices quoted in the OP are not the end of the story. If you're not using the X32 mixer, you need an ADA8000 A/D converter for each 8 channels ($250 each), a P16-I IEM input controller ($350), then the $250 for the mixer is per mixer, and if the input module is at the sound board (keeping the ADAT cables short and well-protected), you'll want a P16-D distributor on stage as the hub for all the mixers. Add cabling, and a 16-channel 6-mix system similar to Aviom's would be in the $2600 range. Still a huge savings over the $5k A16 system; it's comparable to the Hear Back 4-Pack, but the Hear Back system is more limited (8 channels, 4 mixes for $1675). The same A/D components seem to be expandable into a digital snake system; another pair of ADA8000s can take the same 16 channels and turn them back to analog, allowing the two units that make the A/D conversion to be on-stage and a pair of ADAT cables running back to the board for live mixing/recording, instead of needing an analog home run and digital monitor return from the direct outs. All depends on what you already have, I guess.

[ProSoundWeb Community]