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[Joseph Amodeo]

Jumping from DJing for 50 people (you still haven't said if it'll be background music or a rave) to mixing classic rock is going to be a very different set of equipment. The main PA might be roughly similar, but DJing is usually a laptop and a controller, maybe running through a notepad mixer out to the PA. Classic rock would need mics, stands, stage monitors,, a proper desk, and all the associated cabling.
A DJ in small venues might run a pair of 12" subs and 8" tops. For live rock, that's a drum monitor

i have a numark ns7 with a laptop and an odyssey case, stands etc... hoping to get a foldup wall thingy djs use...


for bands not using a pa amplifyer..... hence the discussion is about active speakers...  i have a mackie onyx 1640i analog mixer with firewire connection to a laptop to ableton for effects and the option of recording gigs... the output from the computer is 16 channels not just 2 stereo outputs... so you can send all 16 tracks into and out of the laptop to be routed however you want from the mixer to whatever buses and speakers you decide...

im using an electronic drum set so no need to mic drums it just gets plugged directly into the mixer...

i have 2 vocal mics for singers... probably not gonna use more than that we're not the beatles... 

along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...

like i said im looking for mains that are GREAT for treble and mids... im getting a subwoofer... so it seems pointless to be worrying about the bass on the mains... id rather sacrifice that fully for something with amazing treble and clarity...

[Thomas Le]

Were you actually mixing yourself or just heard them? There's a difference.
I've had fantastic results using K12s and KSubs indoors at levels with good headroom. I've heard another guy push KW152s as far as they would go (limiter lights on all the time) outdoors - not so great, but still very, very passable.
I've had to run SRM450s hard into the limiters once, absolutely horrible experience. Not even remotely close to the KWs. Heck, even Meyer cabs start to suffer when they start limiting. Maybe DSR or PRX cabs are slightly better in some regards, but I haven't used them - And I wouldn't want to get anywhere near their limiters, just like with any other box.

I haven't used the KW but I can confirm John's experience on the K gen 1 series, when "pushed harder" the top end just suffers and everything gets muffled. K-SUB is a bandpass sub exhibiting a "one note wonder" when doing live bands.

[Ray Aberle]

Ahhhh, where to start.

i have a numark ns7 with a laptop and an odyssey case, stands etc... hoping to get a foldup wall thingy djs use...

Good, get that foldup wall thingy. It will really help to improve your sound!

for bands not using a pa amplifier..... hence the discussion is about active speakers...  i have a mackie onyx 1640i analog mixer with firewire connection to a laptop to ableton for effects and the option of recording gigs... the output from the computer is 16 channels not just 2 stereo outputs... so you can send all 16 tracks into and out of the laptop to be routed however you want from the mixer to whatever buses and speakers you decide...

(Fixed the spelling error)
Well, "band not using a PA amplifier" =/= "requirement to use active speakers." Just so you know. As a professional (giggles) sound provider (snorts), you provide what you provide- whether it's passive or active. Which one is better for you? Well, it depends on your skill set and how competent you are in ensuring that the protection for a passive rig is sufficient. Sometimes, you get boxes (think JBL VerTec and presets for the Crown I-Tech HD amplifiers) that make the process simple for you. Other times, you get to work out appropriate limiting yourself. With active speakers, true, a lot of that guess work has been taken care of for you, but if one were to die during a show, it's easier to swap out an amp channel at the amp rack than it would be to replace an entire speaker. [And especially if the speakers are flown!!]

To be absolutely blunt, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on getting the basics of live sound down before playing with effects and recording. Just a thought.

im using an electronic drum set so no need to mic drums it just gets plugged directly into the mixer...

So no way to adjust the balance of the various drums? Wooooo!

i have 2 vocal mics for singers... probably not gonna use more than that we're not the beatles... 

I suspect if these were the Beatles, you wouldn't be their first call for mix engineer...

But really. That statement was non-sensical. PLENTY of regular "average, All-American Bands" use more than 2 vocals... Just saying.

along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...

So you'll need DI boxes/mics for these as well. A "regular" mic/DI package can easily be $2k. [Think 4 SM58s, 4 SM57s, couple of mono passive DIs, couple of stereo passive DIs, 2-3 drum mics, couple of condensers for overheads, a kick mic. That's $2200 or so if you get everything at street price, Raidal DIs, Sennheiser drum clip mics, couple of e614s for OH, a Beta52A for kick.]

like i said im looking for mains that are GREAT for treble and mids... im getting a subwoofer... so it seems pointless to be worrying about the bass on the mains... id rather sacrifice that fully for something with amazing treble and clarity...

... and you've been given suggestions multiple times as to what speakers to purchase. Just the one thing: they're not $175 each. Maybe this is our fault, and no one has been candid enough to state this: If you want to make *one* purchase that will last you for 3-5+ years, then you're not going to accomplish that for $175 each. It's just not going to happen. As they say, fast, good, and cheap- pick any two. Yes, there are $175 speakers out there. But the quality won't be what you're looking for. Will they survive? Maybe. That depends on your skills as the operator. No speaker is 100% bullet-proof. But, similarly, no speaker is 100% guaranteed to not last more than one show.

Here's my thought: Take a day or two and reflect on everything you've been told. And then, start a new thread and let's hash out a realistic plan of a) what you need to get and b) how much you can spend to accomplish this. Let us know what EXACTLY you have now (speakers, amps, mics, stands, XLR/Speakon cabling, wedges, consoles, etc). Then we can create a list prioritizing your purchase needs.

-Ray

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

"...and ice cream castles in the air..."

...Joanie Mitchell

[Lance Hallmark]

Ahhhh, where to start.Good, get that foldup wall thingy. It will really help to improve your sound!
(Fixed the spelling error)
Well, "band not using a PA amplifier" =/= "requirement to use active speakers." Just so you know. As a professional (giggles) sound provider (snorts), you provide what you provide- whether it's passive or active. Which one is better for you? Well, it depends on your skill set and how competent you are in ensuring that the protection for a passive rig is sufficient. Sometimes, you get boxes (think JBL VerTec and presets for the Crown I-Tech HD amplifiers) that make the process simple for you. Other times, you get to work out appropriate limiting yourself. With active speakers, true, a lot of that guess work has been taken care of for you, but if one were to die during a show, it's easier to swap out an amp channel at the amp rack than it would be to replace an entire speaker. [And especially if the speakers are flown!!]

To be absolutely blunt, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on getting the basics of live sound down before playing with effects and recording. Just a thought.
So no way to adjust the balance of the various drums? Wooooo!
I suspect if these were the Beatles, you wouldn't be their first call for mix engineer...

But really. That statement was non-sensical. PLENTY of regular "average, All-American Bands" use more than 2 vocals... Just saying.
So you'll need DI boxes/mics for these as well. A "regular" mic/DI package can easily be $2k. [Think 4 SM58s, 4 SM57s, couple of mono passive DIs, couple of stereo passive DIs, 2-3 drum mics, couple of condensers for overheads, a kick mic. That's $2200 or so if you get everything at street price, Raidal DIs, Sennheiser drum clip mics, couple of e614s for OH, a Beta52A for kick.]
... and you've been given suggestions multiple times as to what speakers to purchase. Just the one thing: they're not $175 each. Maybe this is our fault, and no one has been candid enough to state this: If you want to make *one* purchase that will last you for 3-5+ years, then you're not going to accomplish that for $175 each. It's just not going to happen. As they say, fast, good, and cheap- pick any two. Yes, there are $175 speakers out there. But the quality won't be what you're looking for. Will they survive? Maybe. That depends on your skills as the operator. No speaker is 100% bullet-proof. But, similarly, no speaker is 100% guaranteed to not last more than one show.

Here's my thought: Take a day or two and reflect on everything you've been told. And then, start a new thread and let's hash out a realistic plan of a) what you need to get and b) how much you can spend to accomplish this. Let us know what EXACTLY you have now (speakers, amps, mics, stands, XLR/Speakon cabling, wedges, consoles, etc). Then we can create a list prioritizing your purchase needs.

-Ray

Something else for thought..
If I was out on a night off and listening to music (live or DJ) I would not stay more than 30 minutes no matter how good the artist is, because of the terrible sound that $150 speakers put out, especially when being over driven, as they usually are. You don't have to be running a $20k+ rig but it at least has to sound decent. Real bad audio will only hurt what you are trying to do by driving people away because of the harshness, distortion, etc...

[Chris Grimshaw]

along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...

Please, no.

Go back and read what I said about this. I promise it's just a bad idea, unless you've found some magical way of making a guitar amp spread its sound evenly around a venue that doesn't involve micing it and putting it through a speaker system that's the right tool for the job.

I've argued this with guitarists before. One of them insisted on using his 1x12" combo, no mics allowed. It was sat on the floor facing forwards.
The front row's knees probably heard it, but it was almost entirely inaudible at the back. Seriously.
The rest of the instruments (going through the PA) were heard just fine everywhere.

Chris

[Scott Olewiler]

Joseph,

If you're serious about whatever it is you plan to do with these speakers you need to treat it like a real business.

Here is what is going to happen if you continue down your current path:

 You will have failures during paid gigs and will have no way to recover.  Then you will have to struggle twice as hard to rebuild your reputation. Plus, by using mediocre performing equipment; you will hold yourself at the lowest pay level, perhaps indefinitely.

Joseph,

Reinforcing this point in case you missed it in the original post and all the similar statements made by others since then which apparently you aren't very open to.  If you're hellbent on going about this the wrong way you are not going to get any moral support here. From your last post you seem to already have a plan of attack which based on your convoluted statements seems destined to fail as it simply doesn't make good sense. 

Re-read this entire thread and then  open yourself up to the possibility that either you have no idea what you are doing or aren't very good at communicating it, then re-read the entire thread again. 

Then take Ray's advise and start a new thread to work out a real plan that begins with you asking advice to creating a new viable plan, not asking how to accomplish the foolhardy plan you already have come up with.

There are gems of wisdom in this thread and many other threads on this forum that could save you years of making mistakes and tons of money making them.   Every  moment you spend here is worth it, even if in your mind is seems that you are just arguing back and forth with the members.

Right after I first joined I was very argumentative  in a multi page thread about why SPL matters and watts don't until my thick skull finally understood why my question about how many watts I needed was simply the wrong question to ask. It is initially very hard  to acknowledge to yourself that your preconceived ideas may be founded in nonsensical logic.  If you're smart you'll eventually learn to love to be proven wrong. I learn new things on this forum every day.

[Stelios Mac]

when "pushed harder"

My point exactly. When pushed hard. All speakers suffer when pushed hard. Some may suffer more, some may suffer less. I've heard Meyers suffer just as bad as those KWs I'm describing, I've heard SRM450s suffer MUCH more. Yamaha or JBL boxes may suffer less, that doesn't mean I'd want to use them anywhere near their limiter. They'll still suffer, even slightly.
I'm not saying the QSCs are a better choice, I'm saying that's all I've used and thus can recommend.   

K-SUB is a bandpass sub exhibiting a "one note wonder" when doing live bands.

I've only used them in a somewhat problematic room, but got lots of compliments on the kick & bass sound that day ( vocals not so much    ). I've also heard them outdoors once, they were actually very impressive. Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find anything wrong about them, really. 
Maybe they don't go horribly low like a dual 18", but they certainly didn't sound "one-note" to me. Have you actually heard those as well, or is it just an assumption based on the design? Not all bandpass boxes are created equal... Just seems odd that you'd describe them as "one-note".

[Stephen Kirby]

I've set up K-subs (with K-12 tops, it's what GC rented some friends) in a 600 seat, fairly damped, theater for a dance company recital and they worked pretty darn well.  Music for these runs the gamut from recent hip-hop to things they had on cassettes from years ago.  I heard more that one note.  In fact, I think my Cubo subs are peakier without eq.  Maybe QSC has tamed them in the DSP a bit.  My Yamaha DXS12 has more than one note in it as well.  Although I primarily use it as a drum sub so it wouldn't matter if it did.

[Jeff Lelko]

Reinforcing this point in case you missed it in the original post and all the similar statements made by others since then which apparently you aren't very open to.  If you're hellbent on going about this the wrong way you are not going to get any moral support here. From your last post you seem to already have a plan of attack which based on your convoluted statements seems destined to fail as it simply doesn't make good sense. 

Then take Ray's advise and start a new thread to work out a real plan that begins with you asking advice to creating a new viable plan, not asking how to accomplish the foolhardy plan you already have come up with.

Threads like this seem to pop up here once every month or so and follow the exact same roundabout path of a dumpster fire.

1.  The OP starts off with a wild (but honest) tangent about what he thinks is a good idea, but fails to read the "Real Names Must Be Used" notice plastered all over these boards.

2. The OP types and responds with extremely broken grammar, throws in MUST HAVES, gunnas, I have professional audio training, and other words of validation to "prove" professionalism. 

3. Despite the well-intentioned, patient, professional responses from the community explaining why the original thought/plan/idea won't work and what to consider instead, the OP fails to acknowledge any feedback that discredits his original idea and instead keeps saying/asking the exact same thing despite already being told the right answer several times over.

4. After a dozen or so pages of going in circles the thread is locked.

I think we've reached Number 4 here.  Joe, this isn't an attack on you so please don't take it that way.  If you truly want to learn and grow from this you need to strongly consider the advice you've been given and start again with a new thread, realistic business plans and expectations, and a bit more professionalism.  I think you'll get much more out of this that way.  Either way, best of luck to you.

[ProSoundWeb Community]