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Author Topic: Do I have enough horsepower?  (Read 1449 times)

Sam Costa

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Do I have enough horsepower?
« on: July 10, 2017, 06:32:54 pm »

I recently came across a deal I couldn't pass up.. Picked up 4 EAW 650e cabs and the guy threw in 2 SB600i sub cabs for an additional $200 (for both) Yes, everything works, heard it before we threw it in the back of my truck and I hauled ass outta there before he changed his mind.. ;)

Question is, I currently have the following powering my current system all QSC power:
1 - PLX 1202 for HF
1 - PLX 2402 for MF
1 - PL 4.0 for LF
1 - PL 4.0 for Subs (which I currently have 4 dual 18" sub cabs and don't plan on changing these anytime soon)
Planning on purchasing a EAW UX8800 crossover network soon but in the meantime using a dbx480 (not sure if I would NEED the UX8800 though)

Anywho, is this enough horsepower for these KF650's for medium size rooms with capacity of 500-800 people?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:38:12 pm by Sam Costa »
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Robert Piascik

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 08:42:09 pm »

In my opinion, you are bit light on horsepower if you want max performance from this system and depending on how loud you want to push it, but I would also think that you have plenty for 500-800 ppl room (again depending on how hard you want to drive it). But as a former owner of 4x EAW 650e I would also strongly recommend getting the UX8800.

Is the plan to utilize the two SB600 subs along with your dual 18"s because I don't think that would be a very good idea or did you just mention them because you got such a good deal on them? And what are the dual 18"s?
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Sam Costa

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 10:02:46 pm »

In my opinion, you are bit light on horsepower if you want max performance from this system and depending on how loud you want to push it, but I would also think that you have plenty for 500-800 ppl room (again depending on how hard you want to drive it). But as a former owner of 4x EAW 650e I would also strongly recommend getting the UX8800.

Is the plan to utilize the two SB600 subs along with your dual 18"s because I don't think that would be a very good idea or did you just mention them because you got such a good deal on them? And what are the dual 18"s?

****

Thanks for the info Robert. I for one can always use more power all the time. Ideally I would like to get a few PL6.0 for the subs and LF and move the PL4.0 to the MF and maybe the PLX2402 for the HF.

Regarding the subs, I've been running the TRX218 cabs. They have been solid performers for over the course of 6 years that I've had them.

I could use the SB600i's for different venues where/when I don't need all the "oomph" of the TRX218 cabs. They sounded great when I heard them and I would hate just to have them collecting dust. Not too mention they are a much smaller package and footprint in my trailer than the 4 dual 18" subs.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 10:23:43 pm »

In my opinion, you are bit light on horsepower if you want max performance from this system and depending on how loud you want to push it, but I would also think that you have plenty for 500-800 ppl room (again depending on how hard you want to drive it). But as a former owner of 4x EAW 650e I would also strongly recommend getting the UX8800.

I agree.  I think there are clip lights in Sam's future.  Also in 110% agreement about the UX processing.  Yes, yes, yes.

Quote
Is the plan to utilize the two SB600 subs along with your dual 18"s because I don't think that would be a very good idea or did you just mention them because you got such a good deal on them? And what are the dual 18"s?

Like most EAW products there is an 'e' and 'z' version.  I'm guessing Sam got the SB600e which, IIRC, didn't strike me as much of a "sub" in the way we think of subs today; it was more of "take some of the load off the 650's LF".  The 'z' version had a bit more oomph down low but it weighed 30lbs more and it was still more about saving the woofer in the 650.  If you need contemporary sub performance the whole thing gets potentially complicated with end user creation of Sub/SB600/KF650 crossovers.  Or you can just hook up the whole thing and see what happens ;)

The primary limitation of the 650 ecosystem is the 650 ecosystem.  It does what it does and with the gray box settings for the UX, it sounds pretty good... but it is what it is.  For most end users, "improving" a 650 rig turns into a fair bit of frustration; if you've got the measurement and alignment chops to pull this off you're probably using products more suitable to your actual needs.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 10:36:01 pm »

****

Thanks for the info Robert. I for one can always use more power all the time. Ideally I would like to get a few PL6.0 for the subs and LF and move the PL4.0 to the MF and maybe the PLX2402 for the HF.

Regarding the subs, I've been running the TRX218 cabs. They have been solid performers for over the course of 6 years that I've had them.

I could use the SB600i's for different venues where/when I don't need all the "oomph" of the TRX218 cabs. They sounded great when I heard them and I would hate just to have them collecting dust. Not too mention they are a much smaller package and footprint in my trailer than the 4 dual 18" subs.

Ah, the 'i' version!  Are the 15" speakers slightly offset or centered in the box?  I'm trying to figure out if they're based on the 'e' or 'z' version.  Not that it makes a lot of difference...

The SB600 was an integral part of the KF650 setup because it was the SB600 that took the load off of the 650's LF section.  Operators that used different (typically non-EAW) subs and/or and made assumptions about crossover points tended to replace/recone lots of LF drivers.  Adding more subbage under the SB600 often creates its own set of issues because there is typically a lot of energy from the "infra" sub up around the SB600/KF650 *acoustic* crossover, and they don't automagically play nice with each other. ;)

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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Peter Morris

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 12:25:25 am »

I recently came across a deal I couldn't pass up.. Picked up 4 EAW 650e cabs and the guy threw in 2 SB600i sub cabs for an additional $200 (for both) Yes, everything works, heard it before we threw it in the back of my truck and I hauled ass outta there before he changed his mind.. ;)

Question is, I currently have the following powering my current system all QSC power:
1 - PLX 1202 for HF
1 - PLX 2402 for MF
1 - PL 4.0 for LF
1 - PL 4.0 for Subs (which I currently have 4 dual 18" sub cabs and don't plan on changing these anytime soon)
Planning on purchasing a EAW UX8800 crossover network soon but in the meantime using a dbx480 (not sure if I would NEED the UX8800 though)

Anywho, is this enough horsepower for these KF650's for medium size rooms with capacity of 500-800 people?

Hi Sam,

For maximum SPL run your 650s 3 - way plus the sub.  Two double 18 under two 650s works very well.  Cross them at 120Hz for maximum output.  The weak point in this system is the 15's in the 650, by crossing them a little higher (120Hz) you will take a little load off of them.

The UX8800 will make a big difference in sound quality. If you use them with the UX88800 you will have to add some delay to your subs.  It takes time to do the "focusing" I think around 5ms (I maybe a bit out) for the 650 but only 3.13 for the subs.  So you will need to delay you subs a little (as a GUESS 2-3 ms).  EAW do not tell you this, I think they tried to hide the fact that the UX adds some additional latency - which is not a problem for most applications.

Your amps are OK ... perhaps a little small  - just don't clip them

This is just a picture I found on the net, but its the classic 2 x 650 with 2 x double 18" on a riser.   

Use the SB600 when you need flown subs ...

Good Luck :-)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 12:49:27 am by Peter Morris »
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Sam Costa

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 03:09:37 pm »

Hi Sam,

For maximum SPL run your 650s 3 - way plus the sub.  Two double 18 under two 650s works very well.  Cross them at 120Hz for maximum output.  The weak point in this system is the 15's in the 650, by crossing them a little higher (120Hz) you will take a little load off of them.

The UX8800 will make a big difference in sound quality. If you use them with the UX88800 you will have to add some delay to your subs.  It takes time to do the "focusing" I think around 5ms (I maybe a bit out) for the 650 but only 3.13 for the subs.  So you will need to delay you subs a little (as a GUESS 2-3 ms).  EAW do not tell you this, I think they tried to hide the fact that the UX adds some additional latency - which is not a problem for most applications.

Your amps are OK ... perhaps a little small  - just don't clip them

This is just a picture I found on the net, but its the classic 2 x 650 with 2 x double 18" on a riser.   

Use the SB600 when you need flown subs ...

Good Luck :-)

Great. Thank you for the info. Most of the venues that I run sound at, 90% are all indoors that hold anywhere from 200 to 800 people standing room. I was just more concerned that running these amps in this configuration  would cause any damage to the EAW cabinets. Through the years I've learned that not having enough power/wattage through cabinets that can cause more damage than good.
 I do plan on purchasing two more amps, QSC power light 6.0  to power the subs and LF  sometime in the near future.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 03:36:04 pm »

Through the years I've learned that not having enough power/wattage through cabinets that can cause more damage than good.

That is one of the oldest tales in the book.  Can't blow a driver unless you can overheat it or overextend it.  The "clipped" or squared off top waveforms produced at the limit of the amp won't harm the driver.
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Sam Costa

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 05:34:02 pm »

That is one of the oldest tales in the book.  Can't blow a driver unless you can overheat it or overextend it.  The "clipped" or squared off top waveforms produced at the limit of the amp won't harm the driver.

Thanks for the info Scott.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Do I have enough horsepower?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 06:10:52 pm »

That is one of the oldest tales in the book.  Can't blow a driver unless you can overheat it or overextend it.  The "clipped" or squared off top waveforms produced at the limit of the amp won't harm the driver.
It is that squared off wave form that extends the duty cycle and amount of energy imparted to the coil compared to a conventional sine wave.  The more area under the wave form, the more power dissipated as heat in the voice coil.  So while the squared off wave form doesn't do damage in itself, it is how it gets that way that causes problems.
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