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Author Topic: More subs or more power  (Read 8548 times)

Steve Crump

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More subs or more power
« on: June 25, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »

Using a typical passive front loaded, bass reflex type cabinet, 800 watt continuous/1600 watt program/3200 watt peak, powering with 1,000 watt per cabinet. If you felt you need a little more low end output, would you be better to go 8 cabinets and more amps, or go to larger amps?

I have always used 4 subs outdoors, all center clustered, but the scenario has always been the city, "band in the park" type vibe, bring bag chairs and enjoy. No crowd so far has been larger than 300-400 hundred, so I have been fine. But, I can't say it does cross my mind, what if I am ask to do something else.

Sorry guys, I posted this in the wrong spot and not sure how to get it moved to Lounge..

So, the short question is more subs or more power?

Based on what I have on hand, Buying one more larger amp that provides 2500 watts a channel is cheaper than buying another amp and (4) more subs.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:50:09 AM by Steve Crump »
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Chris White

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2017, 12:05:34 PM »

Buying bigger amps will give a small increase in output but probably not enough to handle larger gigs. You would most likely run into a situation where you don't have enough rig for the gig.  Without knowing more about the subs and what genre of music it will be hard for anyone to make any recommendations.

My opinion is stick with what you have if it works. If you get a call for a larger gig sub rent a bigger PA package and if the larger gigs are going to become the norm purchase what is appropriate at that time.


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Art Welter

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2017, 12:56:24 PM »

Using a typical passive front loaded, bass reflex type cabinet, 800 watt continuous/1600 watt program/3200 watt peak, powering with 1,000 watt per cabinet. If you felt you need a little more low end output, would you be better to go 8 cabinets and more amps, or go to larger amps?
Steve,

Assuming the music you mix has decent dynamic range, that is, 10 dB or more, your 3200 peak watt subs are averaging less than 100 watts with only 1000 watts, so you could triple the power and get about 4.5 dB more output. That said, some genres like EDM have 3dB (or less) crest factor below 100 Hz, so a "800 watt continuous" driver can be burned with a 1000 watt amp with no clipping.

Doubling the speaker cabinets using the same power you presently have, that is splitting 1000 watts between two cabinets would increase SPL by 3dB. Each speaker only uses half the power, reducing excursion and distortion. Almost the same as using triple the power (which can be a problem in many venues) and the speakers are "loafing". I have worked plenty of venues where no breaker ever popped, yet the voltage drop on bass peaks was enough that the system output was 6 dB down from what it would be with a full 120 volts.

Doubling the cabinets and increasing the amplification to the peak potential of your speakers would allow approximately 10 dB more peak output, sounding more than twice as loud as your present set up, assuming no "brown out" and power compression.

Power compression due to voice coil heating (impedance rises in a hot coil) can easily be 3 dB or more, and "typical passive front loaded, bass reflex type cabinets" typically use drivers with the worst power compression- by the end of the show, when you want "a little bit more" you may have a lot less than you started with...

Art
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Steve Crump

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2017, 01:03:52 PM »

Steve,

Assuming the music you mix has decent dynamic range, that is, 10 dB or more, your 3200 peak watt subs are averaging less than 100 watts with only 1000 watts, so you could triple the power and get about 4.5 dB more output. That said, some genres like EDM have 3dB (or less) crest factor below 100 Hz, so a "800 watt continuous" driver can be burned with a 1000 watt amp with no clipping.

Doubling the speaker cabinets using the same power you presently have, that is splitting 1000 watts between two cabinets would increase SPL by 3dB. Each speaker only uses half the power, reducing excursion and distortion. Almost the same as using triple the power (which can be a problem in many venues) and the speakers are "loafing". I have worked plenty of venues where no breaker ever popped, yet the voltage drop on bass peaks was enough that the system output was 6 dB down from what it would be with a full 120 volts.

Doubling the cabinets and increasing the amplification to the peak potential of your speakers would allow approximately 10 dB more peak output, sounding more than twice as loud as your present set up, assuming no "brown out" and power compression.

Power compression due to voice coil heating (impedance rises in a hot coil) can easily be 3 dB or more, and "typical passive front loaded, bass reflex type cabinets" typically use drivers with the worst power compression- by the end of the show, when you want "a little bit more" you may have a lot less than you started with...

Art

Music is, Typically 4 or 5 pc bands, Country, Folk, Motown and Blues. 

Thanks for the responses.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2017, 01:34:32 PM »

I agree with Art.

Simply adding more power will result in more speaker damage and a poorer quality sound the whole time.

By adding more cabinets, everything will run cleaner (less distortion) and run longer (less power to each device).

You can also get more sound and pull less power from the wall with more cabinets and the same power.  That may or may not be a problem

But more cabinets can present some problems.

Sometimes there may not be room to put them in the venue.

What about truck space?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »

Hi Steve-

The distillation of what Art and Ivan said:  More radiating area is more sound with the same power; doubling the cone area gives you +3dB.  Applying double the power results in +3dB in additional output, but the trade offs are power compression and possibly eventual damage (situation depending).

The speaker designer's improvement can be greater sensitivity, where the acoustic output is greater with the same drive voltage; the trade offs here are usually power handling or physical robustness, and price.

Everything is audio is a compromise.  Higher drive voltage from the amp or more subs or more sensitive subs, or all the above.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Lee Buckalew

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2017, 02:25:49 PM »

Using a typical passive front loaded, bass reflex type cabinet, 800 watt continuous/1600 watt program/3200 watt peak, powering with 1,000 watt per cabinet. If you felt you need a little more low end output, would you be better to go 8 cabinets and more amps, or go to larger amps?

I have always used 4 subs outdoors, all center clustered, but the scenario has always been the city, "band in the park" type vibe, bring bag chairs and enjoy. No crowd so far has been larger than 300-400 hundred, so I have been fine. But, I can't say it does cross my mind, what if I am ask to do something else.

Sorry guys, I posted this in the wrong spot and not sure how to get it moved to Lounge..

So, the short question is more subs or more power?

Based on what I have on hand, Buying one more larger amp that provides 2500 watts a channel is cheaper than buying another amp and (4) more subs.

So, what are the subs that you are currently using, make and model.
What actual amplifier, make and model please?

It could be that your best solution would be to get 4 different subs that are significantly more efficient then you current subs.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Steve Crump

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2017, 03:27:33 PM »

I agree with Art.

Simply adding more power will result in more speaker damage and a poorer quality sound the whole time.

By adding more cabinets, everything will run cleaner (less distortion) and run longer (less power to each device).

You can also get more sound and pull less power from the wall with more cabinets and the same power.  That may or may not be a problem

But more cabinets can present some problems.

Sometimes there may not be room to put them in the venue.

What about truck space?


Truck Space can be an issue, depending. I can haul extra subs in my pickup if needed, I have plenty of storage for before and after shows. We use two pickup trucks to tow a 6x12 and a 7x14 enclosed trailers. One has a small stage and tent, the other, lighting, cabinets, amps etc...Both are pretty tight on room at this point.

But, right now all our things are local community support type stuff. And I would have to think long and hard about going much farther into this than where I am at now. I guess I am just exploring what it would take to go one tier higher as far as being about to support a little larger crowd if needed.
 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2017, 03:47:33 PM »


Truck Space can be an issue, depending. I can haul extra subs in my pickup if needed, I have plenty of storage for before and after shows. We use two pickup trucks to tow a 6x12 and a 7x14 enclosed trailers. One has a small stage and tent, the other, lighting, cabinets, amps etc...Both are pretty tight on room at this point.

But, right now all our things are local community support type stuff. And I would have to think long and hard about going much farther into this than where I am at now. I guess I am just exploring what it would take to go one tier higher as far as being about to support a little larger crowd if needed.

Each tier (the "next level") involves improvements to every aspect of your operation:  If you get more/better subs to do larger audiences or different genres, you'll be upgrading your amp racks (or AC distribution if you use powered speakers) and the "higher level" of acts you work with may necessitate upgrades to your mixers, monitors and packaging/transportation.

I wrote a blog post over at Soundforums dot net back in 2013 that is still mostly accurate:

https://soundforums.net/blogs/tim-mcculloch/160970-the-next-level-the-unicorn-of-the-production-business
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 03:56:22 PM by Tim McCulloch »
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Steve Crump

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Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 03:59:31 PM »

So, what are the subs that you are currently using, make and model.
What actual amplifier, make and model please?

It could be that your best solution would be to get 4 different subs that are significantly more efficient then you current subs.

Lee

I had been using (4) Yorkville UCS1s for about 5 years

I recently purchased (4) of the JTR Captivator 212 pros and a Crown Macrotech 5000i to run them. I just had my first opportunity to use them at one of our outdoor community events with a Country/Southern Rock band and was pleasantly happy with the performance of the JTRs.
Honestly I didn't miss my Yorkvilles. But, of course we really didn't have (100-150) many people come to this one and I really didn't have to push the JTRs at all. The area was 80' x 140' and for some reason a lot of people decided to set around the perimeter instead of close to the stage. I was mixing from about 70-80' out.

I don't do Hip-Hop, EDM, Metal etc., it's mostly Folk, Indie Country, and Blues/Acoustic Blues, a little Motown. I only agree to help bands doing styles I want to listen to for an afternoon.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: More subs or more power
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 03:59:31 PM »


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