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[Ben Mehlman]

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  It's a known compromise with this box, and I've been happy until now..  But this weekend at an outdoor gig I hit the limiters a bit more than I would have liked and for the first time was really worried about the boxes.  At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

Which leads me to the QRX212/75 .. which I have worked with and liked pretty well.. I just don't have enough experience with them to judge whether they sound as good as the 325's nor to say whether a pair of them per side will give me the 3-5dB or more across the board that I am hoping for.

Your suggestions would be most welcome.  Thanks!

[Tim Hite]

Sounds like the KF300e would be ideal. Can run a pair per side without much comb filtering. . .use your UX greybox and get the most milage out of the gear. It's a 6Ω box so you can run 3 per side at 2Ω load. You can cross the subs over much higher and get more kids and highs out of the 300s. They are dirt cheap, right now, as well.

I do like the LA325s, but I love my KF300s.

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  . . .At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

[Ben Mehlman]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.. you don't get phase problems with three of them?  Two per side are more practical for me tho.
 And, looking at the numbers, I can't imagine the pair of ported 12's keeping up unless I put a midbass box under them.

But I'll think about it.

It so happens that a good deal on four EV's is being dangled in front of me this minute which is why I'm considering that option.

[David Sturzenbecher]

Ben, have you looked at Peter Morris's DIY 60 on soundforums?  Worth a look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jon Ross]

IMO the QRX and the KF650e (with UX8800) are the same thing, just the KF does it better. You have a budget of 4K and 3k is what four KF650e's would cost. It sounds like you already own the best bang for the buck.

[Tim Hite]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.. you don't get phase problems with three of them?  Two per side are more practical for me tho.
 And, looking at the numbers, I can't imagine the pair of ported 12's keeping up unless I put a midbass box under them.

I've run two per side, splayed a bit and been happy with the results. Honestly, one per side is enough most of the time, esp for indoor shows. If you need more, jump up to the KF650 rig. Unlike the 650s, the 300s sound great in the near field, which makes them much better for smaller shows.

According to EAWs processor settings you need to cross the subs over with LPF @ 100Hz, same as with the KF650 so the mid-bass isn't a worry. I'm running mine with SB600e subs and have no issues. I'm still using the old MX300i CCEP.

http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Processor%20Settings/KFe_PROCS_rev2.pdf

[Mac Kerr]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.

Is 90º too much coverage or not enough coverage for you?

Mac

[Stu McDoniel]

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  It's a known compromise with this box, and I've been happy until now..  But this weekend at an outdoor gig I hit the limiters a bit more than I would have liked and for the first time was really worried about the boxes.  At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

Which leads me to the QRX212/75 .. which I have worked with and liked pretty well.. I just don't have enough experience with them to judge whether they sound as good as the 325's nor to say whether a pair of them per side will give me the 3-5dB or more across the board that I am hoping for.

Your suggestions would be most welcome.  Thanks!

You have exactly the gear you need to do the job.
FYI the KF650E's can be had pretty cheap these days. 
Why spend a single dime on new boxes when you can use the KF650e's?
The output of the KF650E is exactly what you need over the LA boxes.
You have the UX processor to boot?
Common sense comes into play here.

[Ben Mehlman]

Thanks guys.. sorry I vanished for a minute there.. things got busy.. but I have read all your comments and thanks very much for your excellent advice.. you've definitely given me something to think about.

I agree that the KF650e's which I already have would easily handle these gigs, I like their sound, they have plenty of output for what I do, and I have four dual-18's to go with them (18LW1400 loaded, not TONS of output, but enough) to go with them.  The problem with this system is simply that it requires a box truck (which I don't own) to move, and at least one experienced helper and one less experienced helper to get it stacked and unstacked.

Whereas the system with the LA325's + 4 x FR250z subs (dual 15).. sometimes I run it as 2 x dual-18's and 2-4 x dual 15's and run the system 4-way, which sounds great.. but with the smaller subs, the whole system fits in a cargo van and I can make do with one less experienced helper.

So there's a significant difference in price bringing out these two systems.. and the budgets of the events I serve is pretty tight and it's a hard sell to bring out a system for even a few hundred more, even if it's much better value.  Hence why the 650's haven't been going out and the LA325's have.  Of course they'd like it louder.. but they're pretty happy with the capabilities of my smaller system.. I'm the one who's concerned about how close to the limit I've been pushing it at times.  There's one gig I have lined up for next summer where they've used my system three years in a row and are very happy.. but they don't want to go up in price, and don't think they really need a bigger system.. but they actually do.

As far as the KF300's, 90 degrees is not less than I need.. I want wide coverage.. the width of the 325's is really great for me for outdoor events.. it can be a little tricky positioning indoors but I'm ok with that.  When I said I avoided them because of their width I meant that I didn't want to array two 90 degree boxes.. 180 is more than I need.. and and I didn't think they'd give me the output I want at 1 per side.  I've been really particular about having nice smooth coverage with no obvious phasing, time aligning things pretty carefully.. it's one of the things that makes me sound noticeably better than some other guys so I'd not wanted to get into overlapping those boxes so much.  Also I didn't think the woofers would keep up with everything else even if I crossed from the subs higher than I would usually.  But what I'm hearing from you guys is that it's not a problem with the KF300 and suppose I should try them some time.

Meanwhile, I did end up taking a deal on the QRX212/75's, along with a pair of the QRX218S subs (wish they had four of them to sell but they didn't).  It was a good enough deal that if I'm not satisfied with this solution I definitely won't lose money selling them.  So now I'm trying to decide what amps to run on those.. looks like the 2 x PLX3402's in my rack will handle the lows just about right @ one channel per box, and the highs I have a Powersoft Digam 3000 which should be plenty.. I'll just need to correct for latency there...  Thinking about switching the PLX3402's for Crest Pro 9200's so as to have enough power to run any of the three systems mentioned with the same rack.

As far as the DIY option, I looked up the DIY 60 and it's a very interesting project, I might try it some time.  I'm planning to DIY some new subs and looking right now at the XOC1 tapped horn or Art Welters Keystone.  The Keystone seems to be ideal sound wise but dimension-wise the XOC1 works better for me:  small enough to get 4 of them in a van, and stack to a good height and width for the various boxes...  The problem with Arts design is that he says they don't perform as well stacked on their sides.  So 45 inches is the height, which is very good for the LA325 but not high enough for the QRX or the KF650.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I'd be pleased to hear more of them.. particularly re the KF300's and the phasing with those running two per side.. also the midbass output concerns.









DIY 60

[Tim Hite]

. . .The problem with this system is simply that it requires a box truck (which I don't own) to move, and at least one experienced helper and one less experienced helper to get it stacked and unstacked.

. . .but they don't want to go up in price, and don't think they really need a bigger system.. but they actually do.

I just finished the second of two shows last night with a rented KF650 rig. I had an extra guy on the crew to get things done, but with a longer load-in two could have got it done. I tried it with two of us on the first show and had a bit of a disaster, but we only got the stage at 2pm for a 7pm show and the guy I hired was a useless slug had sub-optimal skills and work ethic. I came back yesterday with two new crew and everything ran like gangbusters for an 18-piece big band.

Having the 4x KF650 + 4x SB850 rig parked in my shop next to my little KF300 rig was an eye opener, and I ended up having to rent a truck, which cost a fortune and resulted in my not making much on the show. Had I thought about it in advance, I'd have just bought a small enclosed trailer. I'd have it 25% paid off with the money I would have saved on two days of truck rental and mileage. . .and I'd own a trailer.

That being said, I'm taking these two shows as a learning experience and will just have to figure out a way to charge what it's worth or not take the gigs next year. I'm still looking for a solution for people who don't know what they actually need at their shows, and who don't want to pay for it once you tell them. Working with people who don't normally do events as part of their regular business has been challenging, for me.

Oh, and EAW makes a KF364 box that would fit exactly what you want, but there are none used floating around, and they're $3500 new.

[Helge A Bentsen]

The KF364 is one of the best sounding boxes in it's size.
If you ever get your hands on a used pair, buy them.

[Tim McCulloch]

I just finished the second of two shows last night with a rented KF650 rig. I had an extra guy on the crew to get things done, but with a longer load-in two could have got it done. I tried it with two of us on the first show and had a bit of a disaster, but we only got the stage at 2pm for a 7pm show and the guy I hired was a useless slug had sub-optimal skills and work ethic. I came back yesterday with two new crew and everything ran like gangbusters for an 18-piece big band.

Having the 4x KF650 + 4x SB850 rig parked in my shop next to my little KF300 rig was an eye opener, and I ended up having to rent a truck, which cost a fortune and resulted in my not making much on the show. Had I thought about it in advance, I'd have just bought a small enclosed trailer. I'd have it 25% paid off with the money I would have saved on two days of truck rental and mileage. . .and I'd own a trailer.

That being said, I'm taking these two shows as a learning experience and will just have to figure out a way to charge what it's worth or not take the gigs next year. I'm still looking for a solution for people who don't know what they actually need at their shows, and who don't want to pay for it once you tell them. Working with people who don't normally do events as part of their regular business has been challenging, for me.

Oh, and EAW makes a KF364 box that would fit exactly what you want, but there are none used floating around, and they're $3500 new.

Renting trucks is all about negotiations.  Ryder, Penske, National Lease... all will have a 'rack rate' like hotels and usually just saying "you've got to do better than that" starts the price coming down.  Getting a bid from one will usually drop the price with the next rental company a bit...

At one point we were renting 26' Ryders equipped with ramps and e-track for $85/day and $0.18/mile.  Then Ryder got a new zone manager and the prices went way up so we called Penske, who gave a similar day rental but $0.20/mile.  National really wanted our tiny amount of business for some reason and came in under Penske but we had to up our insurance to get the really nice rate... and it only lasted a couple of rentals but we used their contracts to beat up Ryder again.

Owning trucks and trailers gets expensive and there's a threshold at which the rent/own balance tips.  The security of owning your own trucks is also offset by being responsible if one breaks down (towing and repairing a big truck is incredibly expensive), vs being at the mercy of whatever the rental companies have in stock when you need them.

[Robert Piascik]

I'm a little late to the party here but I still own a pair of LA-325 (down from six), had a KF-650 rig (two over two subs per side), and swapped it all out a few years ago for a Danley SM80/TH118 rig or SH50/TH118 set up for bigger shows. My feeling was/is that the Danley rig is MILES better than the EAW boxes, the KF design is at least 20 years (35 years?) old, the space/weight/ease of deployment savings are considerable and I would never go backwards to that old EAW stuff. The LA-325s are the last thing out of the warehouse and will be gone by the end of this season.

+1 to Tim's comments about truck rental. You can play the companies against each other to get your rate down. I pay $40/day, $0.15/mile for the Penske 16' truck. One day they didn't have one ready at the appointed time so they offered me a 26' at the same rate. Good deal, right? But I knew the 26' takes way more fuel so I got them to comp the fuel. The 26' was actually more cumbersome for loading stage decks with a lift-gate rather than ramp. Bigger in this case wasn't exactly better.

Sounds like you went with the EVs anyway, just thought I'd contribute my $.02

Good luck!

[Kevin Maxwell]

Thanks guys.. sorry I vanished for a minute there.. things got busy.. but I have read all your comments and thanks very much for your excellent advice.. you've definitely given me something to think about.

I agree that the KF650e's which I already have would easily handle these gigs, I like their sound, they have plenty of output for what I do, and I have four dual-18's to go with them (18LW1400 loaded, not TONS of output, but enough) to go with them.  The problem with this system is simply that it requires a box truck (which I don't own) to move, and at least one experienced helper and one less experienced helper to get it stacked and unstacked.

Whereas the system with the LA325's + 4 x FR250z subs (dual 15).. sometimes I run it as 2 x dual-18's and 2-4 x dual 15's and run the system 4-way, which sounds great.. but with the smaller subs, the whole system fits in a cargo van and I can make do with one less experienced helper.

So there's a significant difference in price bringing out these two systems.. and the budgets of the events I serve is pretty tight and it's a hard sell to bring out a system for even a few hundred more, even if it's much better value.  Hence why the 650's haven't been going out and the LA325's have.  Of course they'd like it louder.. but they're pretty happy with the capabilities of my smaller system.. I'm the one who's concerned about how close to the limit I've been pushing it at times.  There's one gig I have lined up for next summer where they've used my system three years in a row and are very happy.. but they don't want to go up in price, and don't think they really need a bigger system.. but they actually do.

As far as the KF300's, 90 degrees is not less than I need.. I want wide coverage.. the width of the 325's is really great for me for outdoor events.. it can be a little tricky positioning indoors but I'm ok with that.  When I said I avoided them because of their width I meant that I didn't want to array two 90 degree boxes.. 180 is more than I need.. and and I didn't think they'd give me the output I want at 1 per side.  I've been really particular about having nice smooth coverage with no obvious phasing, time aligning things pretty carefully.. it's one of the things that makes me sound noticeably better than some other guys so I'd not wanted to get into overlapping those boxes so much.  Also I didn't think the woofers would keep up with everything else even if I crossed from the subs higher than I would usually.  But what I'm hearing from you guys is that it's not a problem with the KF300 and suppose I should try them some time.

Meanwhile, I did end up taking a deal on the QRX212/75's, along with a pair of the QRX218S subs (wish they had four of them to sell but they didn't).  It was a good enough deal that if I'm not satisfied with this solution I definitely won't lose money selling them.  So now I'm trying to decide what amps to run on those.. looks like the 2 x PLX3402's in my rack will handle the lows just about right @ one channel per box, and the highs I have a Powersoft Digam 3000 which should be plenty.. I'll just need to correct for latency there...  Thinking about switching the PLX3402's for Crest Pro 9200's so as to have enough power to run any of the three systems mentioned with the same rack.

As far as the DIY option, I looked up the DIY 60 and it's a very interesting project, I might try it some time.  I'm planning to DIY some new subs and looking right now at the XOC1 tapped horn or Art Welters Keystone.  The Keystone seems to be ideal sound wise but dimension-wise the XOC1 works better for me:  small enough to get 4 of them in a van, and stack to a good height and width for the various boxes...  The problem with Arts design is that he says they don't perform as well stacked on their sides.  So 45 inches is the height, which is very good for the LA325 but not high enough for the QRX or the KF650.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I'd be pleased to hear more of them.. particularly re the KF300's and the phasing with those running two per side.. also the midbass output concerns.









DIY 60

I have been using 2-QRX212 per side over 2 QRX218 per side. The best thing we have done so far is to rotate the horns so the narrower dispersion is to the center on each pair. But you must be very careful as to be sure they are always properly paired. We have them numbered 1-4 and always deploy then starting with #1 all the way house left and then #2 to the right of it with the inner edges 4 inches apart. Then #3 starts the house right stack with it to the center of the room and #4 to the right of #3, again with the inner edges 4 inches apart. EQ for linearity and you will find it sounds better than before.

This way with 2 you have 100 degrees wide by 75 vertical. With the horns in the normal configuration to get the horns to play nice when in pairs you had to splay the fronts too far apart and then the 12s didn’t play nice any more. I really think that with the horns splayed this way that they sound better. We didn’t need 150 degrees of coverage. The other way to use them is the dual PA method, flat front them and feed one pair on each side only the instruments and the other one on each side only the vocals. This also can work great if all you need it 75dgrees of horizontal coverage.

The next thing I want to try is the EV processor with the FIR filters for these boxes. 

[Ben Mehlman]

Hi Robert.. the decision is actually far from made here.. I bought the EV's because the deal was there that allows me to basically try them with no risk.. People tell me that they are equivalent to the KF650's which I find hard to accept.. that DH7 would have to be a hell of a driver to manage that.. I know it's a good driver but hmmm.  But anyway I'm just hoping for noticeably more output with 2/side than I have been getting with 1/side LA325 and if that came with more even HF coverage toward the rear (due to the QRX horn pattern) that would be great too.  That's the fantasy.  And while I'm fantasizing, I'd like if they sounded as good as the LA325's.. hell.. BETTER.. as long as I'm fantasizing

Basically what it's all about is that I am downsizing (or as the corporate world calls it, 'rightsizing') and have to make up my mind, if I do shed all but one system, which one will cover most of the bases for me, at a price that I can live with in a business that I am not actively promoting too much anymore...  I have worked a bunch with a system of 4 x SH50 and 4 x TH215 and that was quite a nice system.. if I was more interested in growing my business (that is, taking the gigs I can get and not just the ones I like) then I would have possibly SH46's at this point.  TH118's also definitely, but at this point it would just take me way too long to recoup those.  The KF's I have already and they do sound quite good with the UX processor.  So basically I'm at this point (thanks to you guys) going to hold on to the three major sets of tops I have.. but shed a bunch of older amps, racks, processing that is sitting around losing value.  I'll bring it down to 1 amp rack that can drive any of the systems (with a couple of amps held back for spares), I'll give it 3-6 months and see how I feel about the EV's, whether I can after all get some interest in festival gigs for the KF650's, and explore some other ideas that you guys are giving me...

AFA truck rental goes.. in NYC I have had major problems with Ryder, Penske and places like that.. I've been in some pretty shifty situations where deals are not kept, trucks are not available as promised.. leaving me in a crisis.  It's like a scene in a bad mobster movie.  So I started dealing with places that cater to the production market.. there are two of them near me.. and they want a bit more money.. $80 for a 14 ft (cargo area).. but mileage is included and 4 days is a week.. and most important.. you call them, you ask for a truck on a certain date, they say yes.. you show up on that date, they hand you keys, you drive to your gig...  No nonsense.  But yea, for short runs where the mileage doesn't matter if does take a bite out of the profits.

I'm a little late to the party here but I still own a pair of LA-325 (down from six), had a KF-650 rig (two over two subs per side), and swapped it all out a few years ago for a Danley SM80/TH118 rig or SH50/TH118 set up for bigger shows. My feeling was/is that the Danley rig is MILES better than the EAW boxes, the KF design is at least 20 years (35 years?) old, the space/weight/ease of deployment savings are considerable and I would never go backwards to that old EAW stuff. The LA-325s are the last thing out of the warehouse and will be gone by the end of this season.

+1 to Tim's comments about truck rental. You can play the companies against each other to get your rate down. I pay $40/day, $0.15/mile for the Penske 16' truck. One day they didn't have one ready at the appointed time so they offered me a 26' at the same rate. Good deal, right? But I knew the 26' takes way more fuel so I got them to comp the fuel. The 26' was actually more cumbersome for loading stage decks with a lift-gate rather than ramp. Bigger in this case wasn't exactly better.

Sounds like you went with the EVs anyway, just thought I'd contribute my $.02

Good luck!

[Rob Spence]

As for power for the QRX212/75, I use PLX amps. 3402 for the lows, one channel per cab and a 1602 for the highs. I can put one or two hf drivers per channel without adjustment. The power comes out pretty close to just right.
A 1602 us pretty cheap.


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[Ben Mehlman]

I have been using 2-QRX212 per side over 2 QRX218 per side. The best thing we have done so far is to rotate the horns so the narrower dispersion is to the center on each pair. But you must be very careful as to be sure they are always properly paired. We have them numbered 1-4 and always deploy then starting with #1 all the way house left and then #2 to the right of it with the inner edges 4 inches apart. Then #3 starts the house right stack with it to the center of the room and #4 to the right of #3, again with the inner edges 4 inches apart. EQ for linearity and you will find it sounds better than before.

This way with 2 you have 100 degrees wide by 75 vertical. With the horns in the normal configuration to get the horns to play nice when in pairs you had to splay the fronts too far apart and then the 12s didn’t play nice any more. I really think that with the horns splayed this way that they sound better. We didn’t need 150 degrees of coverage. The other way to use them is the dual PA method, flat front them and feed one pair on each side only the instruments and the other one on each side only the vocals. This also can work great if all you need it 75dgrees of horizontal coverage.

The next thing I want to try is the EV processor with the FIR filters for these boxes.

Thanks.. I finally did get the boxes together and bring them out for the first time this past weekend.. and I tried this configuration and it worked out really well.. when the splay is just right, the transition is very smooth.. a very good compromise.  So thank you very much for this suggestion.  I never tried them arrayed in the stock (75 horizontal) but think I wouldn't have been too happy with that.

For power, I ended up running bi-amped with a single PLX3402 per side.. so that was 2 ohms on one channel per side.. 4 ohms on the other channel for highs.. and it worked out pretty well but not perfectly.  One PLX3402 went into protect at one point.  Originally I was going to add another amp to the rack for the HF but didn't have time.  So that'll have to be dealt with.. I need a little more breathing room there.  I think a Crest Pro 9200 could drive all the 12's without issue.  I don't think I want to commit to home runs on every box, for every gig, that I would have to deal with if I ran the 12's one box per channel.  The QRX218's I ran 4 boxes on two PL380's and they were quite happy.. zero problem keeping up with the tops, they were coasting all night.

As far as tuning, I started out with some suggested settings from psw members (I have not been successful getting any suggested filter settings from EV).  But I wasn't happy with the results and tweaked a few things.  EV suggests a 1500Hz crossover, some people suggested 1200Hz.. I ended up selecting 1400Hz with a 0.7 millisecond delay.. that was fairly quickly arrived at with just an SPL meter and test tones.. no RTA setup this time.  Also ended up with a 1.5 dB lift (6db hshelf) around 8K for a slight lift at the very top.. but then also a 24dB/oct low pass at 20K, and a dip at 4K as well.  90Hz/48db LW LP and 38Hz 48dB BW HP on the subs.  The gig was a great success, but honestly they do not sound nearly as good to me as my LA325's..   I need to work on eqing them some more...  Louder tho!  And a lot lighter.

[ProSoundWeb Community]