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[Ben Mehlman]

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  It's a known compromise with this box, and I've been happy until now..  But this weekend at an outdoor gig I hit the limiters a bit more than I would have liked and for the first time was really worried about the boxes.  At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

Which leads me to the QRX212/75 .. which I have worked with and liked pretty well.. I just don't have enough experience with them to judge whether they sound as good as the 325's nor to say whether a pair of them per side will give me the 3-5dB or more across the board that I am hoping for.

Your suggestions would be most welcome.  Thanks!

[Tim Hite]

Sounds like the KF300e would be ideal. Can run a pair per side without much comb filtering. . .use your UX greybox and get the most milage out of the gear. It's a 6Ω box so you can run 3 per side at 2Ω load. You can cross the subs over much higher and get more kids and highs out of the 300s. They are dirt cheap, right now, as well.

I do like the LA325s, but I love my KF300s.

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  . . .At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

[Ben Mehlman]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.. you don't get phase problems with three of them?  Two per side are more practical for me tho.
 And, looking at the numbers, I can't imagine the pair of ported 12's keeping up unless I put a midbass box under them.

But I'll think about it.

It so happens that a good deal on four EV's is being dangled in front of me this minute which is why I'm considering that option.

[David Sturzenbecher]

Ben, have you looked at Peter Morris's DIY 60 on soundforums?  Worth a look.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jon Ross]

IMO the QRX and the KF650e (with UX8800) are the same thing, just the KF does it better. You have a budget of 4K and 3k is what four KF650e's would cost. It sounds like you already own the best bang for the buck.

[Tim Hite]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.. you don't get phase problems with three of them?  Two per side are more practical for me tho.
 And, looking at the numbers, I can't imagine the pair of ported 12's keeping up unless I put a midbass box under them.

I've run two per side, splayed a bit and been happy with the results. Honestly, one per side is enough most of the time, esp for indoor shows. If you need more, jump up to the KF650 rig. Unlike the 650s, the 300s sound great in the near field, which makes them much better for smaller shows.

According to EAWs processor settings you need to cross the subs over with LPF @ 100Hz, same as with the KF650 so the mid-bass isn't a worry. I'm running mine with SB600e subs and have no issues. I'm still using the old MX300i CCEP.

http://eaw.com/docs/2_Legacy_Products/Processor%20Settings/KFe_PROCS_rev2.pdf

[Mac Kerr]

Thanks Tim.  I'd avoided the KF300 up to now because of their 90 degree dispersion.

Is 90º too much coverage or not enough coverage for you?

Mac

[Stu McDoniel]

For some years now I've been running a pair of LA325's (over various subs) bi-amped with a PLX3402 each box, Ashly processor using mainly EAW's suggested settings.  (I usually run the MF/HF about 1-2dB lower than they suggest unless the room is packed.. and generally a 1.5 dB lift around 1000Hz...).  I cross to subs usually at 70Hz but could go higher.

They sound excellent to me for their price, but the output is just adequate and no more than adequate for some gigs.  It's a known compromise with this box, and I've been happy until now..  But this weekend at an outdoor gig I hit the limiters a bit more than I would have liked and for the first time was really worried about the boxes.  At 1250w/4 these amps are already too much, as I understand it...

I also own 2/side KF650e with a UX processor but these don't see much action as they are too large/expensive to bring out for many gigs I do and I'm looking for something more practical for what I do.

So I'm looking for something in the middle.. significantly more output than the LA325, same/better fidelity, smaller footprint, easier lift.. and total used cost no more than around 4K less if possible....

Which leads me to the QRX212/75 .. which I have worked with and liked pretty well.. I just don't have enough experience with them to judge whether they sound as good as the 325's nor to say whether a pair of them per side will give me the 3-5dB or more across the board that I am hoping for.

Your suggestions would be most welcome.  Thanks!

You have exactly the gear you need to do the job.
FYI the KF650E's can be had pretty cheap these days. 
Why spend a single dime on new boxes when you can use the KF650e's?
The output of the KF650E is exactly what you need over the LA boxes.
You have the UX processor to boot?
Common sense comes into play here.

[Ben Mehlman]

Thanks guys.. sorry I vanished for a minute there.. things got busy.. but I have read all your comments and thanks very much for your excellent advice.. you've definitely given me something to think about.

I agree that the KF650e's which I already have would easily handle these gigs, I like their sound, they have plenty of output for what I do, and I have four dual-18's to go with them (18LW1400 loaded, not TONS of output, but enough) to go with them.  The problem with this system is simply that it requires a box truck (which I don't own) to move, and at least one experienced helper and one less experienced helper to get it stacked and unstacked.

Whereas the system with the LA325's + 4 x FR250z subs (dual 15).. sometimes I run it as 2 x dual-18's and 2-4 x dual 15's and run the system 4-way, which sounds great.. but with the smaller subs, the whole system fits in a cargo van and I can make do with one less experienced helper.

So there's a significant difference in price bringing out these two systems.. and the budgets of the events I serve is pretty tight and it's a hard sell to bring out a system for even a few hundred more, even if it's much better value.  Hence why the 650's haven't been going out and the LA325's have.  Of course they'd like it louder.. but they're pretty happy with the capabilities of my smaller system.. I'm the one who's concerned about how close to the limit I've been pushing it at times.  There's one gig I have lined up for next summer where they've used my system three years in a row and are very happy.. but they don't want to go up in price, and don't think they really need a bigger system.. but they actually do.

As far as the KF300's, 90 degrees is not less than I need.. I want wide coverage.. the width of the 325's is really great for me for outdoor events.. it can be a little tricky positioning indoors but I'm ok with that.  When I said I avoided them because of their width I meant that I didn't want to array two 90 degree boxes.. 180 is more than I need.. and and I didn't think they'd give me the output I want at 1 per side.  I've been really particular about having nice smooth coverage with no obvious phasing, time aligning things pretty carefully.. it's one of the things that makes me sound noticeably better than some other guys so I'd not wanted to get into overlapping those boxes so much.  Also I didn't think the woofers would keep up with everything else even if I crossed from the subs higher than I would usually.  But what I'm hearing from you guys is that it's not a problem with the KF300 and suppose I should try them some time.

Meanwhile, I did end up taking a deal on the QRX212/75's, along with a pair of the QRX218S subs (wish they had four of them to sell but they didn't).  It was a good enough deal that if I'm not satisfied with this solution I definitely won't lose money selling them.  So now I'm trying to decide what amps to run on those.. looks like the 2 x PLX3402's in my rack will handle the lows just about right @ one channel per box, and the highs I have a Powersoft Digam 3000 which should be plenty.. I'll just need to correct for latency there...  Thinking about switching the PLX3402's for Crest Pro 9200's so as to have enough power to run any of the three systems mentioned with the same rack.

As far as the DIY option, I looked up the DIY 60 and it's a very interesting project, I might try it some time.  I'm planning to DIY some new subs and looking right now at the XOC1 tapped horn or Art Welters Keystone.  The Keystone seems to be ideal sound wise but dimension-wise the XOC1 works better for me:  small enough to get 4 of them in a van, and stack to a good height and width for the various boxes...  The problem with Arts design is that he says they don't perform as well stacked on their sides.  So 45 inches is the height, which is very good for the LA325 but not high enough for the QRX or the KF650.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I'd be pleased to hear more of them.. particularly re the KF300's and the phasing with those running two per side.. also the midbass output concerns.









DIY 60

[Tim Hite]

. . .The problem with this system is simply that it requires a box truck (which I don't own) to move, and at least one experienced helper and one less experienced helper to get it stacked and unstacked.

. . .but they don't want to go up in price, and don't think they really need a bigger system.. but they actually do.

I just finished the second of two shows last night with a rented KF650 rig. I had an extra guy on the crew to get things done, but with a longer load-in two could have got it done. I tried it with two of us on the first show and had a bit of a disaster, but we only got the stage at 2pm for a 7pm show and the guy I hired was a useless slug had sub-optimal skills and work ethic. I came back yesterday with two new crew and everything ran like gangbusters for an 18-piece big band.

Having the 4x KF650 + 4x SB850 rig parked in my shop next to my little KF300 rig was an eye opener, and I ended up having to rent a truck, which cost a fortune and resulted in my not making much on the show. Had I thought about it in advance, I'd have just bought a small enclosed trailer. I'd have it 25% paid off with the money I would have saved on two days of truck rental and mileage. . .and I'd own a trailer.

That being said, I'm taking these two shows as a learning experience and will just have to figure out a way to charge what it's worth or not take the gigs next year. I'm still looking for a solution for people who don't know what they actually need at their shows, and who don't want to pay for it once you tell them. Working with people who don't normally do events as part of their regular business has been challenging, for me.

Oh, and EAW makes a KF364 box that would fit exactly what you want, but there are none used floating around, and they're $3500 new.

[ProSoundWeb Community]