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Author Topic: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room  (Read 9330 times)

Tim Hite

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Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« on: June 06, 2017, 09:52:25 PM »

Current configuration is 13 channels of mics (Shure BX418d/s) and 2 stereo music devices for a small conference room. Looking to replace an older Yamaha analog board. Will be using local I/O initially. Needs to have automixing.

Outputs are to house PA, mono to video camera audio for broadcast, and out to listening assistive devices (bluetooth likely)

Currently looking between M32R and Yamaha LS9-16. Which has the better feature set for this sort of thing, in particular does the automaker type make a difference to justify the higher price Yamaha?

Are there any other devices I should be looking at for this application?
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Riley Casey

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 10:10:42 PM »

Unless the Midas version of the Behringer has much different software than the stock unit that console has only eight channels of automix capability .  The Yamaha LS9-16 has no auto-mixer capability inboard but an add on Dugan card would provide 16 channels.  You need to be sure the LS9 has the last firmware installed to be able to insert the Dugan post fader as it should be.  If the auto mix function on the M32 is the same as that in the XR18 its not as good an emulation of the Dugan as the Yamaha is.

Cailen Waddell

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 10:36:03 PM »

How much actual mixing is going on?  Perhaps this is a situation where a DSP with a controller is a better option...  something like a biamp... or other manufacturer depending on the desired control surface du Jour.  the atlas stuff is quite nice too....


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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 10:36:11 PM »

Look at the Allen Heath Qu series. They have a 16 channel auto mix mode, they call it "D Classic". When I have used for panel discussions and question answer presentations it has worked great.

You probably do not want to assign the music sources to the auto mixer.

Mike Caldwell

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 10:45:14 PM »

How much actual mixing is going on?  Perhaps this is a situation where a DSP with a controller is a better option...  something like a biamp... or other manufacturer depending on the desired control surface du Jour.  the atlas stuff is quite nice too....


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If you figure the price of an Allen Heath Qu Pac or SB and the price a Bi Amp Nexia CS, for about the same money I feel you get a better auto mixer with the Allen Heath Qu's plus a lot of extra functionality

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 12:15:17 AM »

Yamaha QL.  Dugan-style automixer built in. 
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 09:53:44 AM »

Yamaha QL.  Dugan-style automixer built in.

+1 - About the same price as an LS9 plus Dugan card, with many more improvements.
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 12:49:02 PM »

Yamaha QL.  Dugan-style automixer built in.

Well, I called over to Dugan Sound Design and spoke to Dan Dugan. He recommended the Yamaha MRX7-D. . .which is an unsexy commercial matrix mixer, but happens to be exactly what I need in this case.

FWIW the QL is Dugan, not "Dugan-style" and is apparently much better than the emulations available. I have a friend doing location sound that has a few Sound Devices 688s and swears the real Dugan stuff works much better.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:11:15 PM by Tim Hite »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 01:40:53 PM »

Well, I called over to Dugan Sound Design and spoke to Dan Dugan. He recommended the Yamaha MRX7-D. . .which is an unsexy commercial matrix mixer, but happens to be exactly what I need in this case.

FWIW the QL is Dugan, not "Dugan-style" and is apparently much better than the emulations available. I have a friend doing location sound that has a few Sound Devices 668s and swears the real Dugan stuff works much better.

I agree that Dugan works better (I've been having that discussion elsewhere).   I knew the original Dugan MY-card was all Dan's IP but wasn't sure if the firmware versions for the QL and CL were different.  I'd heard the internal versions were not the same but lacking an MY card to compare with I had no A/B eval, hence my use of "Dugan-style".
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 03:55:23 PM »

Well, I called over to Dugan Sound Design and spoke to Dan Dugan. He recommended the Yamaha MRX7-D. . .which is an unsexy commercial matrix mixer, but happens to be exactly what I need in this case.
If Dan blessed it, it is surely OK.
Quote
FWIW the QL is Dugan, not "Dugan-style" and is apparently much better than the emulations available.

I have a friend doing location sound that has a few Sound Devices 668s and swears the real Dugan stuff works much better.

I haven't been able to find a 668? (There is a Sound devices 664 that does not appear to have AM)  There is a Sound devices 688 model that claims to have 2 different AM systems. "Dugan Speech System(tm)" and a "mix assist" (whatever that is). Dan Dugan's website mentions that he collaborated with them on the 688 that is using his automixing approach (Which suggests he blessed it too). 

Back before his patent expired there were a number of alternate AM approaches that didn't work near as well, in fact the early Altec AM models that licensed his patent didn't work that well either, barely following the gain algorithm tracking over the top 10 dB or so... Modern technology makes AM easier to implement, and operating in the digital domain makes it almost free, mostly just a software layer (speculation).

JR

PS: I'm not pimping any AM these days but absolutely positively don't use a 668 (because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist).
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2017, 04:05:27 PM »

. . . I'd heard the internal versions were not the same but lacking an MY card to compare with I had no A/B eval, hence my use of "Dugan-style".

Sounds like they aren't the same, but both still Dugan designed. The QL/CL stuff has been updated by Dugan and Yamaha working together. . .at least if you can believe product marketing videos. . .

https://youtu.be/Qdb8_NKMrzw

Thanks for pointing out the QL, Tim. QL1 is a much better idea than the LS with the Dugan card, if you need a control surface.
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 04:17:04 PM »

If Dan blessed it, it is surely OK.
I haven't been able to find a 668?. . .

PS: I'm not pimping any AM these days but absolutely positively don't use a 668 (because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist).

Well, if it doesn't exist then I'm not buying one. . .
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brian maddox

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2017, 10:17:20 AM »

If Dan blessed it, it is surely OK.
I haven't been able to find a 668? (There is a Sound devices 664 that does not appear to have AM)  There is a Sound devices 688 model that claims to have 2 different AM systems. "Dugan Speech System(tm)" and a "mix assist" (whatever that is). Dan Dugan's website mentions that he collaborated with them on the 688 that is using his automixing approach (Which suggests he blessed it too). 


I've chatted with Jon Tatooles from Sound Devices regarding their AM implementation.  The 'Mix Assist' system was SoundDevices original AM implementation and was "dugan style" but not done in collaboration with Dan.  The Dugan Automix that is implemented in the new 688 is indeed a direct and blessed collaboration with Dan Dugan.  The Mix Assist system was also kept on board for those who may have preferred, or were more accustomed to, that method.

The HD668B is a value priced headphones from our friends at SuperLux.  I don't think it comes with any AM capability.  :)

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 10:28:56 AM »

Needs to have automixing.

What are your expectations as to what "automixing" will accomplish?

Mac
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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2017, 09:46:41 PM »

What are your expectations as to what "automixing" will accomplish?

Mac

I've heard that automixing has magical properties, just like a line array and I've always wanted to work with magic. . .

Seriously, though, need to avoid feedback from local PA and additional remote PA (just outside the room), need a solid broadcast recorder feed, and need to use the prioritizing for the chairman of the meetings. Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This being a conference room application, it would seem that automixing is ideal for the situation. Had only seen it featured in consoles, so I brought the question to the live board because it's the home of good answers.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2017, 10:15:59 PM »

I've heard that automixing has magical properties, just like a line array and I've always wanted to work with magic. . .

Seriously, though, need to avoid feedback from local PA and additional remote PA (just outside the room), need a solid broadcast recorder feed, and need to use the prioritizing for the chairman of the meetings. Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This being a conference room application, it would seem that automixing is ideal for the situation. Had only seen it featured in consoles, so I brought the question to the live board because it's the home of good answers.

I have worked with automixers in two scenarios.

1 - In the late 90's we were installing distance learning video conference room systems.  They employed boundary microphones and dedicated auto mixers.  Some had talker buttons on them that would gain that mic up and move the PTZ camera to a preselected spot.  My role was configuring the dedicated network connections back the the data center where the video was mixed in an MCU.  I opened my mouth one day and somehow the customer found out I knew about audio and my scope increased but not my paycheck.  These systems were still too complicated for a teacher or school AV operator to use.  They fell into disuse for this very reason.


2 - Playing with the automixer on the m32.  It works as promised and seems to me to be more intelligent that just gain.  To my ear it also does some sort of companding to decrease the dynamic range and apparent volume of the speaker.  It's more sophisticated than compression.  The voting algorithms also seem sophisticated.

However since these automixers are attached to sophisticated consoles my comment on unskilled operators is the same as #1.

Drawing an analogy to airplanes.  In the hands of a skilled pilot an autopilot is a huge workload management tool.  It let's you take care of other tasks, navigation, communications, engine and passenger management.  Operating single pilot without an autopilot seems impossible by modern standards.  An autopliot will not enable a non-pilot to successfully complete a flight.

If you want repeatable and sustainable results you need a human, to place microphones, instruct the users of the system and to manage the automation.

 
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2017, 10:19:43 PM »

Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.

This is not one of the features of the automixers that are built into consoles, or the add on Dugan products. What they do do is clean up the sound by limiting the total gain between mics to 1. If you can't make the insert point for the auto mixer post fader, the operator has additional responsibilities because they have to bypass the automixing for those channels not being used. They are not a panacea, but combined with a smart operator they can improve both GBF and the quality of the broadcast and record feeds.

Mac
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 10:41:41 PM »

So, with the environment being a conference room, how many people & mics are we talking about?

I've done conferences with 50+ MX412s and successfully used Dugan AM to allow me to pay attention to how it sounds rather than who's up next.

If this is a board room with installed mics and a conference table where you need tele-/video-conferencing capabilities, then the reinforcement aspect is not necessarily as huge. Also, if this IS the case, I'd suggest the Installed Sound forum.


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Tim Hite

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 10:51:56 PM »

This is not one of the features of the automixers that are built into consoles, or the add on Dugan products. . .If you can't make the insert point for the auto mixer post fader, the operator has additional responsibilities . . .can improve both GBF and the quality of the broadcast and record feeds.

Mac

When I spoke to Dan Dugan, he steered me to the Yamaha MRX7-D, which apparently handles all these issues and returns the wanted benefits. Also allows for custom control UI to be delivered for the system via tablet, Crestron, etc. . .rather than a QL series control surface.

I'm currently investigating that device with Yamaha rep and another integrator and have been assured it's the business for this sort of application. Based on my research of the features, it would appear that it's what I need. It may not totally get the operator out of the picture, and there will be a camera operator in the room, as well, but it will alleviate their current situation of having a console in the front of the room. I certainly don't plan on a plug-n-pray install for the client


So, with the environment being a conference room, how many people & mics are we talking about?

. . .

If this is a board room with installed mics and a conference table where you need tele-/video-conferencing capabilities, then the reinforcement aspect is not necessarily as huge. Also, if this IS the case, I'd suggest the Installed Sound forum.

I should have added previously that they want to run 13 conference mics open, because folks have trouble remembering to unmute their mic before speaking. That's including a wireless lectern mic that may be located in front of the PA. Local PA is already installed and is adequate for the job (room could use some additional acoustic treatment). Client also wants an output for overflow area with separate PA which they will rent, as needed. Client is investigating adding a single Skype feed for call-in questions, as well.

I get that automixing isn't a panacea, but it seems like the best tool for managing 13 open mics in a conference room.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 11:07:05 PM »

When I spoke to Dan Dugan, he steered me to the Yamaha MRX7-D, which apparently handles all these issues and returns the wanted benefits. Also allows for custom control UI to be delivered for the system via tablet, Crestron, etc. . .rather than a QL series control surface.

I'm currently investigating that device with Yamaha rep and another integrator and have been assured it's the business for this sort of application. Based on my research of the features, it would appear that it's what I need. It may not totally get the operator out of the picture, and there will be a camera operator in the room, as well, but it will alleviate their current situation of having a console in the front of the room. I certainly don't plan on a plug-n-pray install for the client


I should have added previously that they want to run 13 conference mics open, because folks have trouble remembering to unmute their mic before speaking. That's including a wireless lectern mic that may be located in front of the PA. Local PA is already installed and is adequate for the job (room could use some additional acoustic treatment). Client also wants an output for overflow area with separate PA which they will rent, as needed. Client is investigating adding a single Skype feed for call-in questions, as well.

I get that automixing isn't a panacea, but it seems like the best tool for managing 13 open mics in a conference room.

That is certainly a very expensive way of getting the feature set.  It may be appropriate for this application.  I will let those with experience running the MY series Dugan cards and the Music Group variants comment on the 5k price delta.

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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 12:10:29 AM »

Do you have any pictures of the spaces you're talking about?

Many of us are used to boardrooms, hotel ballrooms, arenas, and open fields/lots, so our context may not be in line with your room description.

That matrix mixer does seem to have a lot of capability in routing and mixing; if it's the right tool for the job, your client will be quite glad they spent their money. Gotta be able to hit those curveballs, right?

When I spoke to Dan Dugan, he steered me to the Yamaha MRX7-D, which apparently handles all these issues and returns the wanted benefits. Also allows for custom control UI to be delivered for the system via tablet, Crestron, etc. . .rather than a QL series control surface.

I'm currently investigating that device with Yamaha rep and another integrator and have been assured it's the business for this sort of application. Based on my research of the features, it would appear that it's what I need. It may not totally get the operator out of the picture, and there will be a camera operator in the room, as well, but it will alleviate their current situation of having a console in the front of the room. I certainly don't plan on a plug-n-pray install for the client


I should have added previously that they want to run 13 conference mics open, because folks have trouble remembering to unmute their mic before speaking. That's including a wireless lectern mic that may be located in front of the PA. Local PA is already installed and is adequate for the job (room could use some additional acoustic treatment). Client also wants an output for overflow area with separate PA which they will rent, as needed. Client is investigating adding a single Skype feed for call-in questions, as well.

I get that automixing isn't a panacea, but it seems like the best tool for managing 13 open mics in a conference room.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2017, 10:41:05 AM »

I've chatted with Jon Tatooles from Sound Devices regarding their AM implementation.  The 'Mix Assist' system was SoundDevices original AM implementation and was "dugan style" but not done in collaboration with Dan.  The Dugan Automix that is implemented in the new 688 is indeed a direct and blessed collaboration with Dan Dugan.  The Mix Assist system was also kept on board for those who may have preferred, or were more accustomed to, that method.

The HD668B is a value priced headphones from our friends at SuperLux.  I don't think it comes with any AM capability.  :)
Thanks for the correction,, I couldn't find it with google so ASSumed it was not in the market.

JR
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2017, 11:09:26 AM »

I've heard that automixing has magical properties, just like a line array and I've always wanted to work with magic. . .
Not exactly magic, but the gain sharing algorithm that Dan Dugan came up with in the 60s(?) is very elegant at managing groups of similar open mics in a common space. It is so simple I will share how it works. 

-If there is one mic getting most of the signal it will get the same percentage (most) of the gain, all others will get turned down proportionately (so small input level gets almost no gain).

-If two mics are equally contributing the same level of signal, each will get turned down -3dB. The algorithm is even clever enough to turn down coherent (same) signals -6dB, while trimming incoherent (different ) signals -3dB.

-The overall effect is that gain is shared seamlessly, and background noise remains constant, because as far as the room is considered there is only the gain of one open mic, no matter how many are being shared proportionately.
Quote
Seriously, though, need to avoid feedback from local PA and additional remote PA (just outside the room), need a solid broadcast recorder feed, and need to use the prioritizing for the chairman of the meetings. Also, client would like to eliminate the current system's requirement of an operator in place during meetings.
A huge benefit from the Dugan algorithm is that the room behaves as if there is only one open mic, not the dozen or so that would cause a feedback nightmare.

Priority for one channel over the rest, on top of the gain-sharing is a feature of "some" AM. I got a patent back in 1997 for one such variable priority feature (used on first two channels of Peavey AM). The high end Dugan has per channel adjustable priority (I think). When properly executed this priority does not degrade the NOM feedback suppression.

I can not speak intelligently about which Dugan implementations have the full feature set, the priority is not part of the basic gain sharing algorithm that people call "Dugan style", but layered on top of it as an extra feature.   
Quote
This being a conference room application, it would seem that automixing is ideal for the situation. Had only seen it featured in consoles, so I brought the question to the live board because it's the home of good answers.

The Dugan gain sharing algorithm will be very useful for multiple mic applications and will get you 95% of the benefit (IMO). The priority feature is icing on the cake, nice but without it you still got cake.   8)

JR

PS: Note: Before Dan's patent expired (last century) there were multiple different AM strategies. Like the Mix Assist, and numerous others. For basic AM the Dugan algorithm is superior (IMO).
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Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2017, 03:08:00 PM »

I agree that this should probably be in the installation forum.  But I'll make a couple comments here, and I am of course following John Robert’s current signature.  I’ll tell you what I think I know regardless of what you need to know.   

There are products from ClearOne, Biamp, Polycom, MediaMatrix, BSS, Lectrosonics, QSC and even perhaps Shure (SCM820) that are likely to meet your criteria.  And this is not a complete list; I know I’m forgetting a few.  Most of these have gain sharing AMs at least as an option and some of them are what are sometimes termed "free wire" systems where you can build crazy custom configurations.  The first 3 in my list tend to be the top dogs in conference rooms but some in the industry consider QSC to be ahead of the pack in terms of the brains behind them.  Some of the brilliant folks from Peak Audio (original designers of MediaMatrix) moved to QSC and are spearheading their products.  Q-Sys is definitely a different animal with some very powerful capabilities if you need them.  The Yamaha matrix mixer mentioned earlier looks like a formidable device and is obviously Yamaha's attack at the lucrative conference room installation market leveraging the heavy Dugan name.  I'm just trying to point out that Yamaha isn't the only game in town and it might be worth some time to look at some other options.  That said, for some of these systems you won't get far without working with a 'system integrator' (or whatever you want to call the people that design and sell these kinds of systems) as some of these products aren’t really available except to certified installers.

Most of us in live sound (and recording) consider the 'Dugan Style’ gain sharing to be superior to the gated systems on account of the smooth "artifact" free sound not to mention the elegance of the concept.  But there are situations where [intelligent] gated systems are preferred.  In fact, I'm rather impressed with some things that Shure's old IntelliMix does.  I'm even starting to ponder the suggestion that gain sharing is better when each participant gets their own mic (think a panel on TV where each has a lav) but that Shure's intelliMix (or something like it) might be better where participants are sharing mics or where some participants might wander away from their mic.  IntelliMix will open a mic when it is as little as 1db louder than the background noise (average of all the mics) and tries to only open one mic per “talker".  In these situations a plain gain sharing system will just give the loudest mics a small nudge such that most of the mics in the room are still "up" and contributing room sound.  Compare that to the Shure system where only one mic (probably the best one) will get max gain and the others will all be turned down 13-15db.  Exclusively turning on the mic with the best direct to reflected sound ratio can make a big difference in intelligibility even if it’s not really any louder than any other mic.  Another way to think about this is that gain sharing is great when there is a tech there to give it some help from time to time but a gating scheme might be better for completely autonomous systems.  And also consider the destination.  For a broadcast it might sound really bad if mics are audibly turning on and off but for a functional meeting where you're just trying to get clear enough audio to transcribe, it's not an issue.  As always, 'It Depends’ and I have not done clinical trials comparing the efficacy of the various mixing systems [yet].  I’m just speaking from my own experience and research. 

Lastly, for any sound system like this, you are at the mercy of the humans.  Someone who doesn't want to be heard, will not be heard.  And someone who thinks they are smarter/better/loud enough, will often thwart our efforts as well.  Sometimes they point their mic away from them (or even unplug them!) or they lean so far back away from the mic that they can't be picked up well or they will talk into the side of the mic or...  Others will use a mic when they remember but tend to forget as they get deeper into the conversation.  Often the best upgrade for a conference system is to upgrade the moderator so that they police microphone usage adequately. 

Double lastly, I just watched "War Machine" on Netflix.  There was an interesting scene in Berlin with a Q&A microphone.  I'm impressed at how well they captured a typical Q&A scenario.  I won't comment about the rest of the movie. 
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Arrogance is usually far worse than ignorance. But every once in awhile they swap places.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Need help with Auto-mixing console for conference room
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2017, 03:08:00 PM »


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