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Author Topic: help needed  (Read 7994 times)

EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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help needed
« on: June 06, 2017, 02:10:01 PM »

so im in charge of soud ystem at church and now very little of it, and i have no skilled people in this here little town, we are the biggest church with 400 members.
so i always find myself not satisfied with the soud quality of or system.
and we just finished some remodeling to the church, we removed celing paneling, platform walls and rear walls.
so the building its larger and taller, platfornm or stage its bigger.
and the sound changed drastically.
now the monitors over power the main speakers. and if i turn the monitors down we cant hear ourselfs i play guitar aswell.

i ran a phone app the other day its an RTA iphone app and acording to the app the frecuency curve in the church,
its to much low and low-mids. seems like a high cut from 500 and up.

i boosted the highs all the way up and cut all the way down from 500 all the way to 40hz in the 30band eq. just to look what it would do but its still not enough the lows and low-mids are still there the highs did go up a bit.

can any one help me send me links to look in to for speaker placement, acoutic treatment, building acoustics etc.
 
ps. i live in a little town in mexico so i have no access to companies for acoustic treatment i will have to DIY it.
   
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: help needed
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 02:27:04 PM »

so im in charge of soud ystem at church and now very little of it, and i have no skilled people in this here little town, we are the biggest church with 400 members.

so i always find myself not satisfied with the soud quality of or system.

and we just finished some remodeling to the church, we removed celing paneling, platform walls and rear walls.
so the building its larger and taller, platfornm or stage its bigger.
and the sound changed drastically.

now the monitors over power the main speakers.
and if i turn the monitors down we cant hear ourselfs i play guitar aswell.

i ran a phone app the other day its an RTA iphone app and acording to the app the frecuency curve in the church,
its to much low and low-mids. seems like a high cut from 500 and up.

i boosted the highs all the way up and cut all the way down from 500 all the way to 40hz in the 30band eq. just to look what it would do but its still not enough the lows and low-mids are still there the highs did go up a bit.

can any one help me send me links to look in to for speaker placement, acoutic treatment, building acoustics etc.
 
ps. i live in a little town in mexico so i have no access to companies for acoustic treatment i will have to DIY it.

To start, welcome!

Second, can we get some pics of the space! :)

Third, you've come to the right place! Here's a starting point for you.

Fourth, basic speaker placement/aiming goes as follows.

-Each speaker covers a specific area and doesn't cover any other area.
-Speakers should be high and tilted down, a good starting point is aim the center at the back of the crowd
-subs generally should be clustered together either Left Center Right

Fifth, Acoustic treatment will help. Along with diffusion.

-Diffusors can be created via Sonotube and painting them.
-Absorption can be created with fabric, Rockwool, and wood.

[NOTE: this a brief overview, there are different BETTER methods and I have simplified and made assumptions. This does not replace a LOT of system design work, but merely is a quick starting point and to give OP an idea of what to do/where to start learning]

I would first ensure each part of the sound system is working correctly. Go through each monitor and main speaker by itself and ensure it is working. Play some pink noise and mute each one and check on your RTA app and ensure the response looks somewhat flat (rolling off at the LF (100Hz)/HF(12kHz) is fine).

After that position each speaker optimally so the speaker/monitor is hitting the intended person/area correctly. Do this individually playing pink noise and walk the pattern for where it sounds most full (most frequencies in the pattern). Then use the GEQ/PEQ to get the speakers to look flatish on the RTA (remaining on each individual speaker).
Don't boost any frequencies just cut any peaks.

Play some music and make sure you like the way it sounds starting with your EQ.

That's a gist, using what you have to get what you want sounding/working. It wont fix everything but it might start you off in a better place.

First thing is ensure your equipment is working properly. Then continue from there.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: help needed
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 03:03:35 PM »

Any such room will have standing waves at frequencies evenly divisable into the physical dimensions, mostly (but not limited to) between parallel surfaces.  EQ CANNOT CHANGE THIS.

As mentioned above, orienting your speakers properly and adding diffusers to break up any large, flat surfaces will yield the most improvement for the least investment.

More information is good:  pictures of the room, room dimensions, brand/type/location of loudspeakers, etc.
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: help needed
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 03:35:59 PM »

Not to speak against anyone but by his own statement there is a low mid buildup in the room.

You can point speakers and apply diffusion until you blue and still to absolutely nothing to solve this problem, a standing wave has lobes and nulls, this is more a resonant cavity, the best way to decrease the Q(and intensity) of a resonant cavity is fill it with stuff.

The secret is to fill it with stuff near the edges where the pressure is quite high.

Look into membrane absorbers/panel absorbers. Will give you what you are looking for. After that the rockwool/fiberglass panels for absorption will help the problem even more.

You need to give us more information, what size(physical dimensions) is your room?

What materials are on the walls floors and ceiling?

Very often since good acoustic drapes could be all you need and will make a significant improvement to vocal intelligibility.

What source material are you putting through the speakers?

At what SPL are you running? (Please answer with weighting and averaging included in your answer)

What speakers do you have?

Have you got a live band?

What type of music does this band play?
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: help needed
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 03:58:29 PM »

Are the speakers working correctly.  If you run a test tone from the phone into the mixer and send out 400 hz.  do the speakers work equally.  Then try 5,000 hz this should be the horns.  Dont turn up really loud and dont leave it running long times.  less than 3 minutes should be good to walk and see if all the speakers working correct.  If horns are not working you may need some repair, or replace.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: help needed
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 04:10:23 PM »

Not to speak against anyone but by his own statement there is a low mid buildup in the room.

You can point speakers and apply diffusion until you blue and still to absolutely nothing to solve this problem, a standing wave has lobes and nulls, this is more a resonant cavity, the best way to decrease the Q(and intensity) of a resonant cavity is fill it with stuff.

I think your reply might be referencing my post. And I agree, my perspective was: "what can Emiliano do immediately to help his sound" and address his speaker positioning question, not the acoustical treatment question.

He can't build and work on acoustic treatment immediately. Also, IMO he needs to learn about the sound system and how it is setup and ensure it is working properly before working on the room. Rooms you can't easily fix, but you can setup the sound system well enough to get by until you can.

You & others are the expert in the acoustics regard/aspect, whereas I am simply learning/repeating what others have said/done, so I leave that part in y'all's hands :)
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: help needed
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 04:39:05 PM »

His problem could not be acoustics at all TBH, with the limited information we've been given all his horns could be blown(although I doubt they crossover at 500Hz)

Until we have more information its purely speculation
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EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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Re: help needed
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 06:44:01 PM »

His problem could not be acoustics at all TBH, with the limited information we've been given all his horns could be blown(although I doubt they crossover at 500Hz)

Until we have more information its purely speculation

I'll take pictures and give you dimensions tomorrow. For I need all the help I can get
Thanks you all see y'all tomorrow
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EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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Re: help needed
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 02:15:04 AM »

I'll take pictures and give you dimensions tomorrow. For I need all the help I can get
Thanks you all see y'all tomorrow

Here's a link to the pics and a video
https://mega.nz/#F!WgVC2BhR!3w7lBcuX8E_2-_qPK3Y93A

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EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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Re: help needed
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 02:21:57 AM »

I'll take pictures and give you dimensions tomorrow. For I need all the help I can get
Thanks you all see y'all tomorrow

More pics
https://mega.nz/#F!WgVC2BhR!3w7lBcuX8E_2-_qPK3Y93A

So the building mesures
10 meters wide
30 meters deep
4.64 meters high

Celing it's sheet metal, the construction al concrete and a walk of windows
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EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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Re: help needed
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 02:23:30 AM »

More pics
https://mega.nz/#F!WgVC2BhR!3w7lBcuX8E_2-_qPK3Y93A

So the building mesures
10 meters wide
30 meters deep
4.64 meters high

Celing it's sheet metal, the construction al concrete and a walk of windows

Oh and we have about 500 people when its full
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: help needed
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 01:37:37 PM »

Looking at the way that system is setup and the response curve you have shown I would suspect that the horns are blown in those JBLs. Run a sine wave sweep through the system, 100Hz - 12kHz should be sufficient to notice if the horns are blown, if you hear any rattling at all during the sweep likely there is another driver also blown.

Make sure you always mute channels before unplugging things, also make sure you turn on and off the system in the correct order.

On:

1. Sound desk
2. Anything in between the sound desk and the amps(should be some sort of speaker processor/crossover&EQ combo)
3. Amps for speakers

Off

1. Amps for speakers
2. Anything between the sound desk and the amps
3. Sound desk

Don't worry about acoustics right now, there are a lot more problems with the system deployment but check that all the drivers are working first before we move on to the next steps.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: help needed
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 05:42:32 PM »

Looking at the way that system is setup and the response curve you have shown I would suspect that the horns are blown in those JBLs. Run a sine wave sweep through the system, 100Hz - 12kHz should be sufficient to notice if the horns are blown, if you hear any rattling at all during the sweep likely there is another driver also blown.

Definitely test for driver problems but I would suggest not jumping straight to "driver is blown".  Think about a driver not producing sound that you can hear and what might cause this.  Driver damage may well be the case but I have also seen insects nesting in horn throats cause what seems like a blown driver.  I have also seen cabinets that were stored and transported, uncovered, face up, collect a lot of debris in the horn throats and partially block the output.

I am not trying to correct anyone here, just reminding the OP that there may be more than one possible cause for the same result.  Don't get tunnel vision when trouble shooting.

Lee
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: help needed
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 08:21:51 PM »

Celing it's sheet metal, the construction al concrete and a walk of windows

The ceiling appears to be corrugated metal with a fire retardant coating. This should have reasonably good acoustic dispersion (and possibly absorption) properties, so I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.

A concrete floor is a very effective reflector for sound, as is a wall of windows. Human bodies also absorb sound well, so when the room is full, the floor shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If you have parallel flat surfaces (opposite walls), those can create standing waves which generally end up sounding like low-frequency feedback. Breaking up these surfaces to create some dispersion can help control the standing waves. So can absorptive materials, but that can make a room seem "dead."

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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: help needed
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2017, 12:47:23 PM »

The ceiling appears to be corrugated metal with a fire retardant coating. This should have reasonably good acoustic dispersion (and possibly absorption) properties, so I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.

A concrete floor is a very effective reflector for sound, as is a wall of windows. Human bodies also absorb sound well, so when the room is full, the floor shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If you have parallel flat surfaces (opposite walls), those can create standing waves which generally end up sounding like low-frequency feedback. Breaking up these surfaces to create some dispersion can help control the standing waves. So can absorptive materials, but that can make a room seem "dead."

That wall looks like drywalling to me and the other end looks like windows, neither are very good reflectors of sound. I really doubt acoustics is a problem.
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"If you want "loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw------

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Mac Kerr

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Re: help needed
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2017, 01:08:41 PM »

That wall looks like drywalling to me and the other end looks like windows, neither are very good reflectors of sound. I really doubt acoustics is a problem.

Huh??? Both drywall and glass are very good reflectors of sound, and often the cause of strong "slapback" off rear walls of performance spaces. What are you trying to say?

Mac
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: help needed
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 01:52:23 AM »

There's no horn pointed there and they are invisible to low frequency sound, has anyone looked at the pictures he posted.

I know they can cause slap, he has two cheap jbls flown horizontally so effectively 60° horns which will never hit those side walls.

Acoustics is not the problem here regardless because his "measurement" only shows a rolloff above 1kHz despite what he said.

If there was an excess of hf by all means use treatment on those walls, diffusion would still not solve the problem.

Yes they do reflect hf but in his situation it makes no difference, there happens to be blinds over the windows as well so no that wall is acoustically neutral.
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"If you want "loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw------

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EMILIANO ECHEVERRIA ZAPATA

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Re: help needed
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 01:46:41 PM »

Looking at the way that system is setup and the response curve you have shown I would suspect that the horns are blown in those JBLs. Run a sine wave sweep through the system, 100Hz - 12kHz should be sufficient to notice if the horns are blown, if you hear any rattling at all during the sweep likely there is another driver also blown.

Make sure you always mute channels before unplugging things, also make sure you turn on and off the system in the correct order.

On:

1. Sound desk
2. Anything in between the sound desk and the amps(should be some sort of speaker processor/crossover&EQ combo)
3. Amps for speakers

Off

1. Amps for speakers
2. Anything between the sound desk and the amps
3. Sound desk

Don't worry about acoustics right now, there are a lot more problems with the system deployment but check that all the drivers are working first before we move on to the next steps.

Very good I'll do the frequency sweep and then check the horns for debree or insects
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Irvin Pribadi

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Re: help needed
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2017, 12:39:36 AM »

Emiliano welcome to this forum.

Do your ears agree with the measured results from your phone RTA app?
Before chasing down this issue based on an RTA screenshot, I'd like to hear what you think of the sound in general.
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Ken Webster

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Re: help needed
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 08:54:25 PM »

I'll just add that it's best not to jump to conclusions about equipment because losses in other equipment can also affect the frequency response curve.  You need to do isolation testing to determine which component is faulty.  Simplify the signal path by bypassing components like the desk and the equalizer etc.  Swap out Amps and/or speakers for ones you have tested independently of the system and know are good.  Reconnect and retest one component at a time until you identify which component makes it sound bad.  We had similar sound curve issues and found the equalizer was the problem.  Fixed it with fader lube spray but did all the switches and trimmers on the board cleaned and reconditioned all the plugs and sockets with Deoxit.   All just normal regular maintenance stuff but it had been neglected for may years. So eventually went over the whole system in this way, also resistance tested every cable, re-soldered bad connections.  It sounds very good now but a lot of work.....

While testing the system like this is recommended as what you can do now (cheaply), given the timing of a problem occurring immediately on changing the room and if there were no changes to the system, I have to suspect altering the room may be the underlying issue or perhaps a contributing factor.

Regards Ken
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:50:33 AM by Ken Webster »
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Re: help needed
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2017, 08:54:25 PM »


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