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[Stephen Swaffer]

I've collected those old organs as churches tend to want to get rid of them and go to more of the "praise band" type of sound.
Many have separate amplifiers -open chassis -mounted on boards in the "organ lofts" with banks of efficient open-backed speaker panels populated with 6x9's and piezos usually.
Attached is a picture of the typical thing you'll find with an older solid-state church or auditorium organ. (One of the amps is sitting on the box on the right side)
So the console may be rated at 100 watts or so, but that's usually not including the 10+ amplifiers that may be involved.

-On the other hand, look at the ratings on a B3 or a leslie.  Those get uncomfortably loud when cranked too.

Backline in general can get far louder than their nameplate power consumption indicates -just look at what a Marshall head and two 4x12's can put out!

When I came here, we had a genuine pipe organ circa 1920's-30's best we could tell.  Keeping it tuned became too much of an expense and hassle (though I still liked having the "real thing").  This Allen Organ was given to us (I think-we may have purchased it from another church).  I wired it up-so I know where the amps and speakers are-the only amp is one in the lower portion of the console-just 2 speaker cabinets about 18" X 18" X 36" 3-ways I think.  I know it should have been properly installed and tuned to the room as well-but the musicians are happy with it as is.

There is another building across town I have done some work in that has a room full of tube amps (and oscillators, etc.) in the loft for its organ.  Wish I would have had more time to play with it.

[Scott Holtzman]

When I came here, we had a genuine pipe organ circa 1920's-30's best we could tell.  Keeping it tuned became too much of an expense and hassle (though I still liked having the "real thing").  This Allen Organ was given to us (I think-we may have purchased it from another church).  I wired it up-so I know where the amps and speakers are-the only amp is one in the lower portion of the console-just 2 speaker cabinets about 18" X 18" X 36" 3-ways I think.  I know it should have been properly installed and tuned to the room as well-but the musicians are happy with it as is.

There is another building across town I have done some work in that has a room full of tube amps (and oscillators, etc.) in the loft for its organ.  Wish I would have had more time to play with it.

I think I may have found my retirement career, organ repairman.  What possible position could combine such an eclectic range of audio and electronic experience?  I could even find an old RCA TV repairman tube box to haul around with me, how cool would that be?

[Tim McCulloch]

Man I haven't seen that many whizzer cones...I can't think of a pun.

Really shows how far we have come in loudspeaker design.

The voicing of the organ stops (yes we can, on Allen and Rogers) is dependent on how they sound to the voicer, and that depends on where in the room those whizzer cone speakers were placed, if they're in a pipe chamber-like area, etc.  I don't think the speaker systems were designed to *reproduce* the organ sound so much as they were an intrinsic part of tone *production*, like the speaker 'systems' used in electric guitar amplification.

As I alluded to earlier, the move to sample-based electronic organs is probably making for changes in the speaker systems for organs - if the field sampling brings back stunning samples will the old organ speaker ideas be the right solution?  What concepts can be reused and what must change?

[Stephen Kirby]

Acoustic Control used to sell PAs with a column of 6x9s in a plastic horn.  Ivan posted this pic in another thread.  I remember these things.  Very efficient, loud for the time, and lacking that hollow horn sound prevalent at the time.

[Stephen Kirby]

I think I may have found my retirement career, organ repairman.  What possible position could combine such an eclectic range of audio and electronic experience?  I could even find an old RCA TV repairman tube box to haul around with me, how cool would that be?

Have you ever looked inside a Hammond?  Or even a '60s Wurlitzer?

My '55 M3 has an issue with one stop on one note.  I've done the move the contact back and forth thing and when I get some time and energy I'm going to have to tear it open and dig in.  Not looking forward to it though.

[Scott Holtzman]

Have you ever looked inside a Hammond?  Or even a '60s Wurlitzer?

My '55 M3 has an issue with one stop on one note.  I've done the move the contact back and forth thing and when I get some time and energy I'm going to have to tear it open and dig in.  Not looking forward to it though.

I have torn down Leslie's, I believe I possess a decent understanding about the greatest instrument ever to grace a stage.  It's not a speaker.  When I heard Mathew Fisher, Delbert McClinton, Keith Emerson and many other amazing organist that inspired me throughout the years. 

If I had infinite time, my lifestyle needs were taken care of, I can't think of anything more gratifying that learning how to maintain these classic instruments.

I have heard many Leslie emulations, mixed them and tried to reproduce the visceral experience of  a Leslie.  We can do a fairly decent job of reproducing it but it in no way compares to the sound of a an organist and guitar player who control there own dynamics, in an intimate setting (say the Blue Note in NY) with minimal reinforcement.  It's audio nirvana.

Perhaps we don't spend enough time listening to instruments Au Natural that we have accepted the inorganic, overly processed, bass heavy abominations that we put on every day. 

So swerving back on course, I would love to help you with your organ.

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Why do you think they choose 6x9's?  A compromise from the old rear deck mounted car speakers of the 70's.  For us in our 50's how many of our sound careers started by bolting a pair of Jensen Triax's into the back of your car with some really noisy line level amplifier?  Setting up my first line level car amps was an early lesson in gain staging.

Edit:  Actually far more than gain staging.  That early audio adventure put down the fundamentals for adjusting crossovers, driver location and interaction, equalization and measurement.

I remember taking my home stereo (it was around 4 watts/channel I think-maybe) and putting it in my car.

I check the power supply in the stereo and it was around 14V-single ended.

It worked fine and was louder than the stock stereo in my 63 buick.

All kinds of speakers ended up in that car

[Stephen Swaffer]

Scott,

I really hated to see the pipe organ dismantled and discarded.  Without getting into a prohibited religious debate, I know the priorities and purpose of the church made it the right move.  The tube organ I mentioned has a Leslie on a catwalk behind the platform-I doubt that organ has been played in years as the building is no longer used as a church.  They have had praise band in that auditorium and I've seen cheap keyboards in use-totally overlooking what is already there.

I wonder how many of these instruments are just falling into disuse and disrepair?  I live in a small corn town in southeast Iowa-7000 in the town, 20,000 in the county, more hogs than people.  I think the Methodist church a couple blocks away has a pipe organ, we have the Allen and then the tube (can't remember who made it)-all within a mile of each other.  I've heard a few very good organists, but those who truly own the instrument seem to be far and few between. Without someone to maintain them and someone to play them, they become just mere curiosities.  But it would take somone comfortable with decades of electronic technology to be truly versatile with them!

[Ivan Beaver]

  I don't think the speaker systems were designed to *reproduce* the organ sound so much as they were an intrinsic part of tone *production*, like the speaker 'systems' used in electric guitar amplification.

Exactly.

The speakers are very much a part of the "tone".

And EVERYTHING we try to achieve goes AGAINST everything the organ is trying to achieve.

They LIKE sound coming from all over the place-lots of reflections-different arrival times etc.

In fact many of the electronic organ "tone rooms" (the places the speakers are placed) have the speakers pointing all over the place-often times it looks as if they were just "thrown" in.

They are not looking for any sort of accuracy, but rather an experience that simulates (as best as they can) a pipe organ that has pipes all over the room and the sound coming from everywhere.

The idea behind the Leslie speaker was to "throw the sound around the room" like a pipe organ.

Of course that is a VERY different experience.

Almost all of the electronic organ speakers I have run across are in really cheap particle board cabinets, no handles, often no backs, and basically really cheap drivers.

It is a completely different world than what we live in.

Think of it like this.  Take a guitar amp and run it through a studio monitor instead of the 4x12 cabinet and see if the player likes it-He won't.

But it IS better-but NOT what they are looking for.

[Bob Leonard]

I have torn down Leslie's, I believe I possess a decent understanding about the greatest instrument ever to grace a stage.  It's not a speaker.  When I heard Mathew Fisher, Delbert McClinton, Keith Emerson and many other amazing organist that inspired me throughout the years. 

If I had infinite time, my lifestyle needs were taken care of, I can't think of anything more gratifying that learning how to maintain these classic instruments.

I have heard many Leslie emulations, mixed them and tried to reproduce the visceral experience of  a Leslie.  We can do a fairly decent job of reproducing it but it in no way compares to the sound of a an organist and guitar player who control there own dynamics, in an intimate setting (say the Blue Note in NY) with minimal reinforcement.  It's audio nirvana.

Perhaps we don't spend enough time listening to instruments Au Natural that we have accepted the inorganic, overly processed, bass heavy abominations that we put on every day. 

So swerving back on course, I would love to help you with your organ.

 

Scott,
Leslie's are a piece of cake. Amplifier, rotary horn, rotating baffle, 12" speaker and lots of schematics available. I've been inside a B3 for a minor problem and it was like being sent to circuit and wire hell. And keep in mind, these things have to be tuned and constantly adjusted. No thanks, I'll keep what little sanity I have left and stay away from organs.

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