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Author Topic: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software  (Read 1914 times)

Timo Beckman

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So started working on this cool feature within the Powersoft Armonia software

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/working-again/
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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2018, 02:15:01 pm »

Did another blog post:
I wanted to see the difference between the Powersoft X8dante and the Linea Research ASC48 both running a FIR file based on the same data and settings done via FIR Designer.

Had some problems with another brand (which shall remain nameless) so wanted to see if there was a difference.
The differences where minimal and most likely because of me tweaking on the Linea first which has small differences to the Powersoft X8 running just the FIR file.


https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com/2018/05/24/checking-fir-on-2-systems-the-linea-research-asc48-and-the-powersoft-x8dante/
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 02:19:45 pm by Timo Beckman »
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 07:43:22 pm »

Hi Timo, way to dig in there !!  Looks dang close to me.


So I take it the latest ASC-48 System Engineer software and firmware are now accepting user made FIR files (SFI)...right?

What is the available tap count per channel? 
I saw in your vid 384 @48 KHz, but I'm guessing/hoping that was to match the Powersoft,
and REALLY HOPING the available tap count is a lot higher???

Oh, and does the LIR Linear Phase crossover implementation still work under the new software/firmware?

THX !  mark
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Mark Oakley

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 10:17:34 pm »

So started working on this cool feature within the Powersoft Armonia software

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/working-again/

Hi Timo:
 
 Thanks for the awesome videos...again. I'm also a SMAART/Powersoft user. I've spent a lot of time on your site working through your video posts; watching and learning. It's probably the best place on the net to see hands-on, "over the shoulder" examples of how to measure and adjust. Great work!

-Mark
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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 04:48:24 am »

The System Engineer soft is a beta version as is the processor (AFAIK).

The 384taps is the max value and is in my opinion enough to do the things needed.
The Powersoft X8dante can do 2048taps if needed but i kept the values on both the same since i wanted to see if the 2 units agreed on the FIR stuff which they kind of did. 

The linear phase stuff is still in there as is the auto latency compensation which in my opinion should be user selectable although i do understand the functionality for end users (the guy's that just want to use the unit and do not want to mess with measurements).

Already asked for a FIR option on the input side which could be useful.
I still need to try a 96K 768tap filter but that might tak a while.....
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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 05:00:57 am »

Hi Timo:
 
 Thanks for the awesome videos...again. I'm also a SMAART/Powersoft user. I've spent a lot of time on your site working through your video posts; watching and learning. It's probably the best place on the net to see hands-on, "over the shoulder" examples of how to measure and adjust. Great work!

-Mark

Thanks this kind of remarks keep me going
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Uwe Riemer2

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2018, 09:58:33 pm »

Newest version of System Engineer is available for download.
In Off Line mode you will see the arbitrary FIR functionality.

AFAIK the processor Timo used is new hardware, not a firmware update on the older models.

And if you want higher tap numbers, look elsewhere.

BTW drawing straight lines on the screen is pretty tempting, isnt it  :)

Uwe


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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 04:56:59 am »


AFAIK the processor Timo used is new hardware, not a firmware update on the older models.

And if you want higher tap numbers, look elsewhere.

BTW drawing straight lines on the screen is pretty tempting, isnt it  :)

Uwe

Hi Uwe

Getting straight lines is indeed tempting ;-)
The ASC is a beta version as is the soft i got from the Linea guys.
In the end there's a remark regarding the FIR's being based on a single mic position which i only did for the screen captures sake.....

To get a better (or different result/more consistent result) i would have to use multiple measurements both onax and ofax horizontal and vertical.
If the dut would have been a real job for me it would take some more time and coffee and it would have been a very long screen cap. To have 20 or more measurements on screen (+20 squiggly lines) and hunt down the similarities on all would take "some time".

This screen cap does show the basic idea on how one could work with this kind of stuff.
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 09:38:03 am »

Newest version of System Engineer is available for download.
In Off Line mode you will see the arbitrary FIR functionality.

AFAIK the processor Timo used is new hardware, not a firmware update on the older models.

And if you want higher tap numbers, look elsewhere.

BTW drawing straight lines on the screen is pretty tempting, isnt it  :)

Uwe

Thanks Timo and Uwe,

Yeah, I can see the offline FIR functionality added in the latest System Engineer,
but even with the new firmware, once online, there is no FIR capability.
 
AFAICT, all that happens from installing both on existing hardware, is losing LIR capability. So I'm rolling back System Eng and firmware...

I've been hoping the processor would be updated to keep the LIR implementation with automatic delay compensation between bands,
and also allow loading FIR files that get merged into the LIR file being used for crossover duty. 
384 taps might work like this, if used just for driver correction, and put into the file on top of the linear phase crossover, .........maybe.

Tempting straight lines ??  :)   
Oh yeah! glad I finally grew out of making them such a desired goal  :-[

I've been a heavy user of the measurement-averaging capability built into FIR Designer.
Processed traces are never perfect anymore, but on and off axis traces sure do group better , huh ?

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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 11:25:05 am »

Hi Mark

I purchased the old ASC48 a couple of years ago (2016 i think) and changed it at Frankfurt this year for testing purposes.
It's the same processor on the outside but inside it's different AFAIK.

I can check if the linear stuff will work after implementing a FIR as soon as i have time and the weekend is done ;-)
The automatic delay compensation in my opinion should be a user selectable feature which i would turn of if needed.

Instead of averaging a whole bunch of traces i want to check what happens if i only select problem points that are similar between multiple traces and see if i can adjust the ofax points without effecting the onax to much to get a better response al over.
This might take some time i'm afraid and loads of coffee ;-).

384 taps gets you pretty far in my opinion and the filter delay kind of determines how much latency you'll end up with.
In case of the screen capture i'm using a 2.08ms latency delay on the high's and a 4.16ms on the low driver which get's me a pretty good respons on the measurements side as well as on the "ears" bit.
I was not the only 1 tech that listened to the end result. Another tech i know heard the system and was "pleasantly surprised" by how the system under test sounded with the settings i came up with....
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2018, 05:39:43 pm »

Hi Timo,

I like your suggestion that automatic delay compensation be up to the user. 
(I wonder how they are doing it, via setting delay per channel, or setting the tap count on all channels to equal longest channel.)

If the LIR/auto timing compensation is removed, and all that is left is 384 taps, I feel that doesn't work for me. 
Because I like using steep x-overs to minimize the range of frequency overlap, which gives more consistent vertical ofax response IME.
384 craps out at 48dB/oct, somewhere in the 3-400Hz range. (I really prefer going to 96dB/oct LRs)

Oh...and yeah, I like your method of looking for ofax problem points.  Wish there was some software to identify common anomalies in traces.
I manually look for problems in vertical ofax.
For horiz ofax, I think averaging works really well.
Just trying to share techniques here.....always learning :)

Thx for checking, when you get a chance, on whether LIR works in addition to implementing FIR.
No examples needed, I would just like to know if LIR remains available.

I've been having other sound guys listen to my tuning efforts too...we all need 2nd opinions  ;)
The guys and I say we are hearing the same thing  ......as mag and phase get more and more linear...
...the sound gets clearer and much more dynamic....phase IS timing, huh?



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Timo Beckman

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Re: Smaart V8.1 (api enabled) and Powersoft Armonia software
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 06:31:44 am »

I most of the time try to avoid high order x-over filters (old school guy so ;)). Also overlap will give me a max addition of +6 if aligned properly

The thing i notice on flat phase and semi flat frequency respons is the vocal range being "in your face" and a more detailed sound/placement of instruments.

I do have some thoughts regarding STI/STIPA and the stuff Fulcrum Acoustic is doing but they need to be proven.
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