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Author Topic: FOH options for small festival  (Read 25954 times)

Simon Ryder

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2017, 07:07:56 AM »

EXACTLY

FIRST it is important to determine the REAL NEEDS, LONG before any sort of discussion begins on gear.

If you don't know what sort of outcome is expected, how do you know if you have achieved it or not?

Sure, it is a lot more fun to talk gear, but how do you know if the gear proposed will actually do the job, when the job has yet to be defined?  Accurately anyway.

Plus One for this.

Looking at the arena and what you have to do, I strongly suggest you rent the EAW KF650 system. It is a superb system and is a quality level significantly above all the systems you have been offered to purchase.

If you are looking to buy a system, then bear this in mind:

Whatever you buy, you will use on all your gigs. As you are small, you would do better to rent in the best fit system for each and every venue that you do.

The things to buy rather than rent are the low purchase / high rental things. Such as LED par cans. Most PA firms (certainly in the UK) base everything on a 1% ROI per hire.

There are exceptions to this rule. Microphones are generally a 5% return. Budget powered speakers are typically a 10% return (though this may have to do with failure rates - as well as them often being rented out by businesses with high overheads - such as DJ stores)

Powered speakers, typically the lower end ones such as the FBTs, RCFs etc that you are mentioning provide a faster return than pro boxes. To give an idea, A QSC K12 would rent out for £30 per day here in the UK. A D&B Y7P rents out for excatly the same price. Obviously there is a massive difference in the purchase price. The main differences are the market sectors. The budget box will be doing weddings / DJs / pub gigs etc. The premium box is priced for tours and large events. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the budget systems will perform anything like the premium systems - they wont.

So my advice is this if you are looking to start buying:

Buy some decent mics, then a desk (X32 / Impact / QU depending on preferance)

Then buy some decent multipurpose speakers - I would head to JBL SRX800 / DAS Vantec. These are at the upper end of the MI market and have a quality sitting well into the pro end. They should be durable and last a long time. They sound superb and perforem well. Look for who else has got some in your area, you want to be able to rent in more when you run out. They are smart enough for conferencing and AV work and loud enough for band use. They have a real world achievable output level of 136dB ish - which makes them twice as loud as the other cabinets that you are looking at that have a peak output not a continuous output at about that point. Go for the 12" models not the 15", the mid range will be cleaner and you will use them with subs for louder things.

I would suggest you buy 4 initially. Then a pair of the matching subs. That is your bar gig system, or your monitor rig on bigger events.
Then add another couple of tops, then another pair of subs.

You can do small DJ and live events (200 people)
Corporate / AV (maybe not using subs at all)

A decent small monitor rig - 4 wedges across the front, a sub and wedge for the drummer and a listen wedge.

Keep renting in the FOH system for now for bigger gigs.

Buy some LED par cans and a controller - they are an easy, high return upsell to your bookings.


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Roland Clarke

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2017, 08:05:09 AM »

I've read through 8 pages of this thread and I think that the real issue is "rig for the gig".  Like many in here I've made money on running rigs up to their limits to "fit" into the clients budget.  Just a cursory glance at the photo's makes me think you need more than anything originally proposed, irrespective of potential sound limit.

I would suggest that a couple of decent double 18s a side or equivalent (1x danley, orbitshiter) per side.  Decent top cabs, the midrange stuff looks like it would be all on or close to its limits.

Some db technologies t4s a side might be an option.  Not perfect but could make this work for this space at reasonable budget.
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Dave Bednarski

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2017, 02:03:40 PM »

We are 20 miles apart... keep your money in the bank until it makes business sense and pair up.  My October is light.  :-)
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2017, 05:19:03 PM »

Drum mic's - On snare drum and Toms, Senn e604's. Mike Pyle just helped me add another 3 pack to my mic box.  For not to mic more than a good used 421...  One lovely aspect to the e604 is that they cut 3 stands out of your pack.  Down side... if you get a Jazz guy with big fat wooden rims, you're back to stands...
Some good advice in this post.  But a minor quibble with the above.  I love the e604s and own a set.  99% of the sound of 421s for a fraction of the cost, and without the easily broken stand adapter.  However the supplied clips Do Not work on most common RIMS tom mounts.  The ones with the bar wrapped around the top of the drum hanging it off the tension rods or lugs.  Typically these are different sizes for different sized drums and the ones on the top toms are usually too narrow for the clip to hold on.  The clip was sized to span across a typical hoop (rim for non-drummers).  I learned from friends who do tours where they're likely to encounter these mics to gaff tape some foam to the RIMS mounts on my smaller toms.

If you get these mics, and I also highly recommend them, you should get together with a drummer who has a modern kit with RIMs mounts on it (Anything Yamaha, Gretsch, Tama, most Pearl and DW) and check the fit of the clips.  Cut up some small blocks of fairly stiff foam to fit in between the RIMS bar and the space in the clip.  Have spares in case they get lost.

On the kick mic, read though the sticky and see which popular mic is voiced for the music you're most likely to do.  The Audix is a popular metal mic.  An RE-20 would be the choice for jazz.  I personally own a Beta-52 and AKG D112 which are kind of in the continuum between those extremes.  I can eq the Shure to be clicky or the AKG to be more neutral and either work well in general purpose use.
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Steve (Stevie Ray) Kalbach

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2017, 01:10:02 AM »

Well, I didn't get it.  Outbid by someone who was going to do both days for $1400.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2017, 09:51:29 AM »

Well, I didn't get it.  Outbid by someone who was going to do both days for $1400.

Considering what they had last year you may have been shooting for too much of jump in production value for the event organizers. Maybe they really don't need the level of production you were ready to provide. 

There are lot of guys in PA who already own the proper gear who would jump at the chance to get $700 /day for a gig like this. PA is flooded with guys with nice rigs doing bar bands for $200-$300/night. $1400 for a two day event is really good money for those guys.

If you're not wiling to do this particular job for that money, then just consider it a job that is not for you and walk away.

I'm not expensive at all compared to a lot of guys in this forum, I still  lose a lot of jobs myself on price. I've had people laugh at me when I quoted them $425+ for a 4 hour gig. Of course some of those same people later heard me mix and came up to me and said things like "man, I wish we could afford you"

 It's tough on weekends when I have nothing booked knowing I could be making some money rather than no money. If I only wanted to make easy money and work all the time I'd go back to being a DJ.

On the other hand, I've gotten gigs because I was priced well under the big players in the area and they were trying to sell the clients something that was much more than was really required for the event.

Some outdoors shows are truly fine with a couple of 12" tops over a couple of subs. But if you ask some of the guys in this forum you're posting in, every outdoor job requires a 12 box hang and 24 subs. Cuz that's the world they live in.

Depends who else they were getting quotes from, how you fit into their budget. Win some, lose some.







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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2017, 12:42:08 PM »

I would attend the event and see what the competition specced for the event, if it was underspecced according to you best judgement you did nothing wrong, if you don't feel comfortable doing the gig with the correct gear you are doing the right things by not doing the gig.
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Steve (Stevie Ray) Kalbach

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2017, 08:53:48 AM »

There are lot of guys in PA who already own the proper gear who would jump at the chance to get $700 /day for a gig like this. PA is flooded with guys with nice rigs doing bar bands for $200-$300/night. $1400 for a two day event is really good money for those guys.

If you're not wiling to do this particular job for that money, then just consider it a job that is not for you and walk away.

I know what you are saying Scott, and maybe I over spec'd it, but when you factor in a 3 man crew, and 24 hours of labor each.  That only comes out to $20/hour per person, if you don't account at all for the gear.  Between the equipment I was providing, as well as renting, in all they would have been receiving a $80,000 rig for not much more than the $1400.  I quoted $1800, and that was to cover labor and rentals.  I was taking a $0 paycheck for my work.  I know you can't win them all.  On the bright side, because of this thread, I met a local sound engineer who I am going to advertise for and try to get some work together. 
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Peter Morris

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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2017, 09:17:52 AM »

I thought you were on the West Coast originally.  We are in East and Western OH and go to PA all the time.  The DB Tech line array could handle that.  If you are interested in chatting shoot me a PM.

Thanks

FWIW DB Tech have just upgrades the DSP settings for the T12 & T8 with FIR settings ... these are serious little boxes now.

http://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/news/world-wide/2017/05/fir-filters-for-dva-t8-dvat12-line-array-systems.aspx
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Re: FOH options for small festival
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2017, 09:17:52 AM »


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