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Author Topic: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List  (Read 1846 times)

jabney (john abney)

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~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« on: May 16, 2017, 02:36:02 am »

Just starting with video on our own. We are fine with the sound. Now, our venue could use some cameras, etc. And the cameras should be run by one person if necessary. I have looked at the specifications for several PTZ cameras, but to go beyond 2 megapixels or so seem to start costing real money. So what about something like this:

3x JVC GY-LS300 4K S35mm  - $2,600.00 x3
3x lenses (decent - but not for making major movies - 50mm - $500 x3)
3x Wild Shot Camera CPT 1019 Pan Tilt System - $850 x3
1x Roland V-1SDI 4-Channel HD Video Switcher - $1500
1x Blackmagic Web Presenter ($500) and Teranex Mini Smart Panel ($85)
Plus some cables and a couple of displays and computers.

The 3 JVC 4k cameras and its lenses would be run by remote, and the Pan Tilt would be run by remote as well.

This wouldn't be full 4k, but it would be a start - I think. (Unfortunately, SDI for these particular items don't carry 4k, right?) Should that system work together? What would you add or replace?





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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 03:23:12 am »

Just starting with video on our own. We are fine with the sound. Now, our venue could use some cameras, etc. And the cameras should be run by one person if necessary. I have looked at the specifications for several PTZ cameras, but to go beyond 2 megapixels or so seem to start costing real money. So what about something like this:

3x JVC GY-LS300 4K S35mm  - $2,600.00 x3
3x lenses (decent - but not for making major movies - 50mm - $500 x3)
3x Wild Shot Camera CPT 1019 Pan Tilt System - $850 x3
1x Roland V-1SDI 4-Channel HD Video Switcher - $1500
1x Blackmagic Web Presenter ($500) and Teranex Mini Smart Panel ($85)
Plus some cables and a couple of displays and computers.

The 3 JVC 4k cameras and its lenses would be run by remote, and the Pan Tilt would be run by remote as well.

This wouldn't be full 4k, but it would be a start - I think. (Unfortunately, SDI for these particular items don't carry 4k, right?) Should that system work together? What would you add or replace?

I would go with the Blackmagic ATEM 4k - It has 6G-SDI that can even do 4k raw bitrates.  Get a nice multipoint touchscreen to control it with and another for your cue monitor.

What is your 4k display/projector ?  Streaming 4k is huge $$$
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jabney (john abney)

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 02:22:04 pm »

I would go with the Blackmagic ATEM 4k - It has 6G-SDI that can even do 4k raw bitrates.  Get a nice multipoint touchscreen to control it with and another for your cue monitor.

What is your 4k display/projector ?  Streaming 4k is huge $$$

Thanks Scott! The Blackmagic ATEM 4k seems to be a good choice - especially with the included software. At $1700, with XLRs-In and a built in display and 4k, that would be a smart upgrade over the Roland - assuming that particular Blackmagic item behaves. The Roland seems simple, but the Blackmagic ATEM 4k seems only a little more complicated. (Unlike the complicated JVCs - but installed out of reach, those should be OK too.)

4k projector? I wish. The venue just installed a power screen, so our local eyeballs need to get used to that first.

Again, thanks.
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Chris Edwards

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 10:36:38 pm »

Just starting with video on our own. We are fine with the sound. Now, our venue could use some cameras, etc. And the cameras should be run by one person if necessary. I have looked at the specifications for several PTZ cameras, but to go beyond 2 megapixels or so seem to start costing real money. So what about something like this:

3x JVC GY-LS300 4K S35mm  - $2,600.00 x3
3x lenses (decent - but not for making major movies - 50mm - $500 x3)
3x Wild Shot Camera CPT 1019 Pan Tilt System - $850 x3
1x Roland V-1SDI 4-Channel HD Video Switcher - $1500
1x Blackmagic Web Presenter ($500) and Teranex Mini Smart Panel ($85)
Plus some cables and a couple of displays and computers.

The 3 JVC 4k cameras and its lenses would be run by remote, and the Pan Tilt would be run by remote as well.

This wouldn't be full 4k, but it would be a start - I think. (Unfortunately, SDI for these particular items don't carry 4k, right?) Should that system work together? What would you add or replace?

Why not the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD vs the Roland?
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jabney (john abney)

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2017, 01:02:10 am »

Why not the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD vs the Roland?
Why the Roland? The T-Fader on the Roland (or whatever it's called).

The Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD looks nice, but it doesn't have a T-Fader. And while the Blackmagic ATEM 4k doesn't have a T-Fader either, it does have 4k. And 4k trumps a T-Fader - so I've read. Also, I understand that the Roland and the Blackmagic ATEM 4k can each coordinate multiple sources without having an additional genlock; while I couldn't find any reassuring language about that feature with the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD.

Having run into that problem with a Matrox MXO2 (no available tri-sync), it seems like a video system has many choices but only one or two correct choices. With audio, you just need to choose between 48k or 44.1k (for us), avoid red LEDs most of the time, and do it with audience-friendly taste. Video, though, is a world of its own, so whoever operates whatever we wind up with will have to learn a lot. That's why if I can run an understandable video rig, then the other qualified volunteers and staff can do it as well.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2017, 01:51:05 am »

Why the Roland? The T-Fader on the Roland (or whatever it's called).

The Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD looks nice, but it doesn't have a T-Fader. And while the Blackmagic ATEM 4k doesn't have a T-Fader either, it does have 4k. And 4k trumps a T-Fader - so I've read. Also, I understand that the Roland and the Blackmagic ATEM 4k can each coordinate multiple sources without having an additional genlock; while I couldn't find any reassuring language about that feature with the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD.

Having run into that problem with a Matrox MXO2 (no available tri-sync), it seems like a video system has many choices but only one or two correct choices. With audio, you just need to choose between 48k or 44.1k (for us), avoid red LEDs most of the time, and do it with audience-friendly taste. Video, though, is a world of its own, so whoever operates whatever we wind up with will have to learn a lot. That's why if I can run an understandable video rig, then the other qualified volunteers and staff can do it as well.

The only difference between the 4k and the HD is the bandwidth on the bus .  The software is the same.

If you noted I said get a 14" or larger multi-touch screen.  The giant t-bar on the screen works great.

The HD sync's on all the sources, has seamless transition, internal storage for images and two static image players, tons of transition effects, foreground, background and chroma keyers.  It's an incredible value.

If you don't have a 4k display I don't understand the fixation on switching 4k.  What does it get you?
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jabney (john abney)

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2017, 04:22:45 am »

The only difference between the 4k and the HD is the bandwidth on the bus .  The software is the same.

If you noted I said get a 14" or larger multi-touch screen.  The giant t-bar on the screen works great.

The HD sync's on all the sources, has seamless transition, internal storage for images and two static image players, tons of transition effects, foreground, background and chroma keyers.  It's an incredible value.

If you don't have a 4k display I don't understand the fixation on switching 4k.  What does it get you?

4k video is the future - so the articles say; that means somebody at some point will complain if it's not there. So $700 to add 4k is probably worth it.
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Erik Jerde

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2017, 07:42:49 am »

You'd be better off ignoring 4K and buying higher quality HD gear.  Broadcast standard is still 1080i.  You don't need the extra pixels and no one is sitting close enough to the screen to notice the difference.  The only place where there could be an exception is a virtual pastor shot on a really big screen.  For that you'd need a 4K streaming setup and projection. 

You've been caught up in the 4K hype.  Time to get deprogrammed and get out of the cult.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2017, 10:58:41 am »

You'd be better off ignoring 4K and buying higher quality HD gear.  Broadcast standard is still 1080i.  You don't need the extra pixels and no one is sitting close enough to the screen to notice the difference.  The only place where there could be an exception is a virtual pastor shot on a really big screen.  For that you'd need a 4K streaming setup and projection. 

You've been caught up in the 4K hype.  Time to get deprogrammed and get out of the cult.

exactly.  1080p is just fine.


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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2017, 11:51:53 am »

The Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio HD looks nice, but it doesn't have a T-Fader.
I have found a manual wipe handle to be useful about 10% of the time when a special long fade is required.  For normal switching, a button with variable fade time is much more useful as it allows your fades to be consistent.  I would not base a purchasing decision on this feature if it were me.

Note that BlackMagic just came out with the ATEM Television Pro Studio HD (scroll down):

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudiohd

This does have a physical fader.

I agree with the other posters - 4K isn't going to be practical for 10 years, and even the difference between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 is rarely perceived in a live situation with projectors.  I would not make a purchase decision based on needing 4K anything.
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Erik Jerde

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2017, 12:02:03 pm »

It appears that the highest frame rate the cameras you have species will do at 4K is 30p.  I'd want 60 fps (p or i) for motion.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2017, 01:26:50 pm »

I have found a manual wipe handle to be useful about 10% of the time when a special long fade is required.  For normal switching, a button with variable fade time is much more useful as it allows your fades to be consistent.  I would not base a purchasing decision on this feature if it were me.

Note that BlackMagic just came out with the ATEM Television Pro Studio HD (scroll down):

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudiohd

This does have a physical fader.

I agree with the other posters - 4K isn't going to be practical for 10 years, and even the difference between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 is rarely perceived in a live situation with projectors.  I would not make a purchase decision based on needing 4K anything.

We just finished 6 fly dates with the ATEM HD (Thanks Nathan Riddle for the loan as they are on wait list) I am not sure a knob would be considered a physical fader.  The external control unit is pricey, double the cost of the switcher.  I had no trouble adapting to the touch screen workflow
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2017, 01:28:30 pm »

We just finished 6 fly dates with the ATEM HD (Thanks Nathan Riddle for the loan as they are on wait list) I am not sure a knob would be considered a physical fader.  The external control unit is pricey, double the cost of the switcher.  I had no trouble adapting to the touch screen workflow
Are we talking about the same thing?
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2017, 01:34:14 pm »

Are we talking about the same thing?

No we are not, that is super cool.  Wow, wish that was available before I bought mine.

Update on opinion.  If you can swing the 2k go for the new model with the physical surface.  It's not just the johnson bar, one touch access to the sizzles/wipes is a workflow saver too. 

One thing you should know about the ATEM.  The AUX output is useful but it doesn't support transition effects.

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jabney (john abney)

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2017, 02:16:11 pm »

No we are not, that is super cool.  Wow, wish that was available before I bought mine.

Update on opinion.  If you can swing the 2k go for the new model with the physical surface.  It's not just the johnson bar, one touch access to the sizzles/wipes is a workflow saver too. 

One thing you should know about the ATEM.  The AUX output is useful but it doesn't support transition effects.
So you folks have me convinced about not worrying too much with 4k - especially with the new HD Blackmagic Design ATEM Television Studio Pro HD Live Production Switcher.

And what does that button do? The one that says, "PTZ" near the six unlabelled buttons next to the unlabelled large circular control? The RCA controllers for the Wild Shot Camera CPT 1019 Pan Tilt System probably work, but if the new Blackmagic ATAM Pro HD has some sort of built-in PTZ control, that could make the work-space neater. I've bookmarked the site and now just wait for the details.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 02:23:14 pm by jabney (john abney) »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2017, 02:28:13 pm »

So you folks have me convinced about not worrying too much with 4k - especially with the new HD Blackmagic Design ATEM Television Studio Pro HD Live Production Switcher.

And what does that button do? The one that says, "PTZ" near the six unlabelled buttons next to the unlabelled large circular control? The RCA controllers for the Wild Shot Camera CPT 1019 Pan Tilt System probably work, but if the new Blackmagic ATAM Pro HD has some sort of built-in PTZ control, that could make the work-space neater. I've bookmarked the site and now just wait for the details.
The manual is here.  Check out pages 92 and following.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2017, 03:36:17 pm »

The manual is here.  Check out pages 92 and following.

Not only is there the manual that covers the PTZ and Tally interface options but there are also external translators that allow DMX control. 

I am able to fire FTB and preview selection via Ableton over MIDI.  It is very cool.


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Craig Hauber

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2017, 03:55:41 pm »

exactly.  1080p is just fine.


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Just sucks when the customer asks for it and your competition has it.
-heard the exact same thing said about HD years ago.
-also heard the same thing said about Line Arrays

Yes waiting means it will get cheaper.
-But then how many possible shows do you have to miss before you finally upgrade. 

However only you will know if the value of those missed shows and lost clients equals or exceeds the savings on gear you get from waiting.

If it truly is "hype" then when starting from scratch, a good way to start is to buy the used gear from someone established who's bought into the "hype" and is upgrading.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2017, 04:27:32 pm »

Just sucks when the customer asks for it and your competition has it.
-heard the exact same thing said about HD years ago.
-also heard the same thing said about Line Arrays

Yes waiting means it will get cheaper.
-But then how many possible shows do you have to miss before you finally upgrade. 

However only you will know if the value of those missed shows and lost clients equals or exceeds the savings on gear you get from waiting.

If it truly is "hype" then when starting from scratch, a good way to start is to buy the used gear from someone established who's bought into the "hype" and is upgrading.

You have clients willing to pay for 4k projectors?  If you do then by all means by a 4k switcher.

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Cailen Waddell

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2017, 04:28:20 pm »

You have clients willing to pay for 4k projectors?  If you do then by all means by a 4k switcher.

I was thinking the same thing....


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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2017, 04:37:46 pm »

Just sucks when the customer asks for it and your competition has it.
-heard the exact same thing said about HD years ago.
-also heard the same thing said about Line Arrays

Yes waiting means it will get cheaper.
-But then how many possible shows do you have to miss before you finally upgrade. 

However only you will know if the value of those missed shows and lost clients equals or exceeds the savings on gear you get from waiting.

If it truly is "hype" then when starting from scratch, a good way to start is to buy the used gear from someone established who's bought into the "hype" and is upgrading.
Many posts on this forum are built on some premise that may not reflect a good understanding of the reality of the situation in question.  For another example, there's a guy in the church AV forum who wants a 1080p over analog component DVD player (which as far as I am aware has never existed) so he can keep using his rear-projection TV.  He states that replacing the TV is out of the question, but is apparently willing to go to some effort to work around what is the only realistic way to satisfy good image quality - a new TV and digital HD content.

Your point is partially taken about occasional dismissal of new-fangled technology as being unnecessary, but I am very confident the OP didn't understand the extreme effort and expense to really do 4K imag (especially relative to the very small improvement that makes at any venue viewing distance), and was just hoping to future-proof a bit, which is certainly reasonable.  I think he got good answers to his questions.

Perhaps the best value this forum offers - sometimes to the consternation of the OP - is the answer the OP needs to hear rather than the one they want to hear.

By the way, the reason the Black Magic 4K switcher exists is for producing broadcast content, where the merits of 4K actually exist.  If BlackMagic or some other company can make a 20,000 lumen 4K projector for $5,000 which would enable projecting on 30' wide screens in venues used to 12' wide screens, now we can talk about the 4K revolution.  Until that point, the OP's $15,000 budget isn't going to go very far.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:40:10 pm by TJ (Tom) Cornish »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2017, 05:25:23 pm »

Many posts on this forum are built on some premise that may not reflect a good understanding of the reality of the situation in question.  For another example, there's a guy in the church AV forum who wants a 1080p over analog component DVD player (which as far as I am aware has never existed) so he can keep using his rear-projection TV.  He states that replacing the TV is out of the question, but is apparently willing to go to some effort to work around what is the only realistic way to satisfy good image quality - a new TV and digital HD content.

Your point is partially taken about occasional dismissal of new-fangled technology as being unnecessary, but I am very confident the OP didn't understand the extreme effort and expense to really do 4K imag (especially relative to the very small improvement that makes at any venue viewing distance), and was just hoping to future-proof a bit, which is certainly reasonable.  I think he got good answers to his questions.

Perhaps the best value this forum offers - sometimes to the consternation of the OP - is the answer the OP needs to hear rather than the one they want to hear.

By the way, the reason the Black Magic 4K switcher exists is for producing broadcast content, where the merits of 4K actually exist.  If BlackMagic or some other company can make a 20,000 lumen 4K projector for $5,000 which would enable projecting on 30' wide screens in venues used to 12' wide screens, now we can talk about the 4K revolution.  Until that point, the OP's $15,000 budget isn't going to go very far.

I didn't get the comparison to Line arrays either.   Nobody disputed HD was an huge improvement over NTSC either.  The acceptance rate was questioned.  Luckily the consumer market drove it.  We still are dealing with HDCP and creeping HDMI standards a decade later. 

Lastly, at the risk of being a prick, the OP doesn't know what a PTZ interface is.  I don't think they comprehend the signal chain concept, exponential increase in storage and network bandwidth to handle 4k.  The colorspace and expanded dynamic range standards are still in flux and projection options are few and far between.  A real 4k home projector is still north of 10k.  I haven't even bothered to see what 10k or 20k would set you back.  Another reality is 15k won't buy you a good HD camera, lens and stabilized mount.

Last reality, we mask off VGA projectors to 16:9 on 13x24 fast fold with a 7k projector with happy clients.

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Craig Hauber

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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2017, 01:26:48 pm »

I didn't get the comparison to Line arrays either.   Nobody disputed HD was an huge improvement over NTSC either. 

I was referencing those few that I encountered in 1994 that thought it was all a gimmick and those "tiny" column hangs would never catch on.

Likewise I lost track of how many times I heard "you don't need HD, all the content is NTSC"

Many of those people are no longer in this industry and I don't want to be one of those "so get off my lawn" types.

I see 4k as more than a gimmick but a convergence of video and display formats.  I use a 4k monitor as primary in my office for cad work.  It's nice to be able to do watch video, deal with graphics, make presentations and have it translate to everyone else's display without any downscaling. 

Do you really need it now?  Is the difference noticeable in large projection? -probably not. 
But when you're pulling a record-feed that could be played back on the new 4k TV in the client's boardroom it would look really great and separate you from that other video vendor that doesn't.

Your large-format Imag projection system probably will be fine for a long time to come, but I personally would want to master, record and process at the higher resolution.  That way in the future you just buy whatever new affordable 4 or 8K device that's available, plug it in and go without any needed upgrades or learning-curve for your infrastructure or methods.

Quote
Last reality, we mask off VGA projectors to 16:9 on 13x24 fast fold with a 7k projector with happy clients.

640 x 480?  Really?
surely you mean SXGA?
(or at worst, XGA -I use one of those for a home theater and they make LED walls finer than the pixels I get out of that at 16:9!)
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Re: ~$15k - 4k Wishing List
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2017, 05:21:15 pm »

I was referencing those few that I encountered in 1994 that thought it was all a gimmick and those "tiny" column hangs would never catch on.

Likewise I lost track of how many times I heard "you don't need HD, all the content is NTSC"

Many of those people are no longer in this industry and I don't want to be one of those "so get off my lawn" types.

I see 4k as more than a gimmick but a convergence of video and display formats.  I use a 4k monitor as primary in my office for cad work.  It's nice to be able to do watch video, deal with graphics, make presentations and have it translate to everyone else's display without any downscaling. 

Do you really need it now?  Is the difference noticeable in large projection? -probably not. 
But when you're pulling a record-feed that could be played back on the new 4k TV in the client's boardroom it would look really great and separate you from that other video vendor that doesn't.

Your large-format Imag projection system probably will be fine for a long time to come, but I personally would want to master, record and process at the higher resolution.  That way in the future you just buy whatever new affordable 4 or 8K device that's available, plug it in and go without any needed upgrades or learning-curve for your infrastructure or methods.

Your mastering and fly pack are a different application than the OP so my comments are not on point.  I do agree if you are going to be working on content captured in 4k with the opportunity to present in 4k you by all means should be mastering, curating and switching that content at 4k.

Quote
640 x 480?  Really?
surely you mean SXGA?
(or at worst, XGA -I use one of those for a home theater and they make LED walls finer than the pixels I get out of that at 16:9!)

Yes XGA and some SXGA - Sorry

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks
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