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[Cameron M Gunn]

Hi all,
 
I am looking for some ballpark prices and generic speaker setups that would be suited to a room similar in layout and size to the one I attached here. Now, this isn’t meant to be advice on what we should actually buy – an A/V consulting company will be brought in to specify and install the sound system and acoustic treatments once the land for the new building has been purchased. The church board is just trying to determine if we are ready to bring in contractors now to draw up an actual set of plans and move forward or if we need to wait and save for another year or two.
 
So here’s a little about our services and the proposed room:

• Our ideal SPL is 100-105dBA, and 110-115dBC at the mix position.
  We do have a full band and there is a heavy emphasis on music.
  I do have a brand preference towards Nexo and EAW.
  Aesthetics aren’t important. They won’t need to blend in with anything.
  The room seats around 400 people and is roughly 80ft wide and 55ft deep with a ceiling that's 22ft high.
  There will not be a balcony.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

What's your budget for the install?

Also are you aware how loud 100-105 dBA is specially at the back of the room, research shows that 95 is about the point where people will start complaining that it is too loud.

If you get a good high qualoty system there should be no reason to be running 100-105 dBA. We run 90-95 dBA and it is plenty loud enough.

Don't hold your preference to specific manufacturers specifically not those. There are some amazing manufacturers out there and I wouldn't limit my install to 2 manufacturers.

[Cameron M Gunn]

What's your budget for the install?

Also are you aware how loud 100-105 dBA is specially at the back of the room, research shows that 95 is about the point where people will start complaining that it is too loud.

If you get a good high qualoty system there should be no reason to be running 100-105 dBA. We run 90-95 dBA and it is plenty loud enough.

Don't hold your preference to specific manufacturers specifically not those. There are some amazing manufacturers out there and I wouldn't limit my install to 2 manufacturers.

No budget yet. That's why I posted, I'm trying to get a general idea of what kind of equipment we'll be looking at and rough estimate on what it costs so we can work up a budget. The actual quote we get from an installer could be far less or far more. The gist of it is I don't want to tell the church board we likely need around $10k in amps and speakers when it's really more like $50k, or vise versa.

I am aware of how loud 100-105dBA is. That is what they like to run in our current space, we do use an SPL meter. Our current space was not designed for this and lacks acoustic treatment, so we may end up quieter at the new space. Most of the church is young however and the request for those levels came from far above my head. So far there have been no complaints (other than mine).

I am not limiting to those two manufacturers. Those systems are what I am most familiar with mixing on, but since this this is an install I am not married to any specific brand. Danley, Nexo, QSC and EAW are what I commonly see the local installers putting in, so I assume I will likely end up with one of those once the install company is brought in.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

I wouldn't put QSC into the same class as the other three depending on the specific product. The issue is you can buy a cab for $2k and a box with similar output for $8k. The 8k box sounds better but your budget might dictate the 2k box that doesn't sound terrible but isn't as good.

I would nearly 100% install a powered system so that is probably what you are looking at but that doesn't mean you can't get a great passive system there are just advantages to a powered system or an integrated system like DB or L'coustics that you won't get with a mix of tops and amps, I believe even danley has released an amplifier for their boxes.

That's why a budget really is needed. Could be 50k or 100k and both systems will meet your requirements but one system is a different class of system. Meyer vs EV for instance...

I believe you will be looking at 30k+ though for what you asked, as I said can go all the way up to 100k depending on a ton of things.

Needing 100-105 average is a big call though, that requires some very serious horsepower for me to be comfortable with speccing an installed system.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Hi all,
 
I am looking for some ballpark prices and generic speaker setups that would be suited to a room similar in layout and size to the one I attached here. Now, this isn’t meant to be advice on what we should actually buy – an A/V consulting company will be brought in to specify and install the sound system and acoustic treatments once the land for the new building has been purchased. The church board is just trying to determine if we are ready to bring in contractors now to draw up an actual set of plans and move forward or if we need to wait and save for another year or two.
 
So here’s a little about our services and the proposed room:

• Our ideal SPL is 100-105dBA, and 110-115dBC at the mix position.
  We do have a full band and there is a heavy emphasis on music.
  I do have a brand preference towards Nexo and EAW.
  Aesthetics aren’t important. They won’t need to blend in with anything.
  The room seats around 400 people and is roughly 80ft wide and 55ft deep with a ceiling that's 22ft high.
  There will not be a balcony.

Is this just speakers and amps?  Is the wiring already there or does that need to be added?  What is access like?  Has someone done the rigging analysis? Mono cluster? Some other arrangement?

I don't think 105dBA will be a limiting factor in a room only 50' deep.

What currency are we talking about? Jean-Pierre is in South Africa, and others are in the US.

If this is an open warehouse-type room where everything is exposed and easy and power is in the right place, $30K USD will get you something reasonable but not extravagant. If any part of the project is hard that number goes up quickly.

[Ivan Beaver]

I would start with a 90* wide main loudspeaker in the center.

Then explode 2 other narrower coverage speakers (maybe 60* ish) to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

Of course they have to be properly aligned/processed etc to blend in with the center.

This will pull the attention to the center and have the highest intelligibility in the room and the smoothest coverage.

If that is what you are looking for.  Others prefer some other types of systems for different usages/intentions.

[Cameron M Gunn]

Is this just speakers and amps?  Is the wiring already there or does that need to be added?  What is access like?  Has someone done the rigging analysis? Mono cluster? Some other arrangement?

I don't think 105dBA will be a limiting factor in a room only 50' deep.

What currency are we talking about? Jean-Pierre is in South Africa, and others are in the US.

If this is an open warehouse-type room where everything is exposed and easy and power is in the right place, $30K USD will get you something reasonable but not extravagant. If any part of the project is hard that number goes up quickly.

At the moment, the building doesn't exist. It will be new construction and a warehouse style setup with an exposed roof.

I am in the US, so USD.

Cabling I will do myself - that used to be my day job. An sound contractor will be brought in to rig and tune the system. So the price is just for the speakers and amps.

I would start with a 90* wide main loudspeaker in the center.

Then explode 2 other narrower coverage speakers (maybe 60* ish) to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

Of course they have to be properly aligned/processed etc to blend in with the center.

This will pull the attention to the center and have the highest intelligibility in the room and the smoothest coverage.

If that is what you are looking for.  Others prefer some other types of systems for different usages/intentions.

Would we be looking at something like a KF695z in the center and a KF650z on either side or would that likely be over/underkill?

Stereo would have been nice, but I'm assuming the width of the room rules that out.

If I had to throw out a number for budget, I'd say under $40k.

[Ray Aberle]

I think you would be well off to heed the advice of Jim Brown who discusses why often churches will purchase 3 (yes, THREE!) sound systems, and how you can only purchase 1. You're at the perfect point (pre-building or even the design of your facility) to be able to bring an acoustical consultant in now to help you plan this out. No, you don't have to purchase any gear yet- they'll help you develop more concrete specifics, and identify a price range that you would be able to know is a realistic reflection of how much money you need to do this right.

-Ray

[Cameron M Gunn]

I think you would be well off to heed the advice of Jim Brown who discusses why often churches will purchase 3 (yes, THREE!) sound systems, and how you can only purchase 1. You're at the perfect point (pre-building or even the design of your facility) to be able to bring an acoustical consultant in now to help you plan this out. No, you don't have to purchase any gear yet- they'll help you develop more concrete specifics, and identify a price range that you would be able to know is a realistic reflection of how much money you need to do this right.

-Ray

Which is what I will be doing, per the OP. However the church board will not be allocating any money towards the project until they have a general idea of what it will cost. They don't need or want exact numbers, just a general estimate. If they decide to go forward with it, then they will build a proper budget and set of plans with someone qualified to do so.

[Ray Aberle]

... ok. I mean, an acoustical consultant can help you with that process, and help get you a general ballpark figure of what it will probably cost to do it correctly, but hey, a random guess by people who haven't seen the room in person or otherwise have any solid information will probably suffice.

-Ray

[Stephen Swaffer]

I would start with a 90* wide main loudspeaker in the center.

Then explode 2 other narrower coverage speakers (maybe 60* ish) to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

Of course they have to be properly aligned/processed etc to blend in with the center.

This will pull the attention to the center and have the highest intelligibility in the room and the smoothest coverage.

If that is what you are looking for.  Others prefer some other types of systems for different usages/intentions.

Our auditorium has close to the dimensions you have mentioned-and we just installed QSC K12's arrayed as Ivan describes-3 as a center cluster and 2 as sidefills.  We have a traditional service, no band, but we do some drama and other hi intensity muti media at times.  I haven't measured the system, but I fairly certain we could easily get the levels you have spec'd.

Intelligibility is very good and coverage is uniform.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

Our auditorium has close to the dimensions you have mentioned-and we just installed QSC K12's arrayed as Ivan describes-3 as a center cluster and 2 as sidefills.  We have a traditional service, no band, but we do some drama and other hi intensity muti media at times.  I haven't measured the system, but I fairly certain we could easily get the levels you have spec'd.

Intelligibility is very good and coverage is uniform.

I doubt K12s will suffice. Would probably need KW if they were going to go that kind of route.

If they get proper processors and decent amps I don't see an issue with the KF series stuff OP mentioned earlier.

We have EV ETX boxes in a similar sized room but due to the ceiling being half the  height of theirs we have double the amount of boxes needed and have a delayed line. Would get(and do sometimes, I understand worship leaders want louder than what is logical) 105 average in the room quite easily.

I would recommend 2 double 18s or 4 singles for subs. We have two ETX 18s and although they do the job well wouldn't mind the extra headroom.

Keep in mind that you would do very will to get someone with some acoustics knowledge in durning the planning stage, there is only so much you can fix afterwards.

[Stephen Swaffer]

I wasn't suggesting he go the K12 route-he obviously is looking at a different budget and has different preferences.  Simply giving a little real world experience in an almost identically sized and configured space.

[Nathan Riddle]

Best guess?

JUST sound = speakers, amps, install; not acoustics, not mixer, not stage, not instruments, not cabling, not ANYTHING ELSE.

budget - 11k (2xSRX835p, 2xSRX828p)
great - 23k (Danley SH96/2x60, DBH218, DNA20k4)

http://blog.shure.com/upgrading-your-churchs-audio-system-five-tips-from-a-church-tech/

http://tjcornish.com/articles/live-sound-articles/recommended-audio-equipment.html

[ProSoundWeb Community]