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Author Topic: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy  (Read 17467 times)

Jonathan Betts

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 11:46:11 AM »

Thanks Jonathan, I'll PM you. Any reason why you feel that wouldn't be beneficial to the forum?

I feel as though I have voiced my opinion comparing the SM80 to several other cabinets many times over the years.

My small business operates gear from Danley to low budget Alto. We regulary mix on Danley, JBL passive and powered SRX. Rentals consist mostly of PRX, QSC KW, Alto, RCF, EAW.

We compete mainly with other small operators running a few line array elements per side.

I have mixed many shows on these types of systems and find that they are sonically inferior to any decent, well deployed point source box.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 12:01:39 PM »

Thanks Chris, I do enjoy the long posts as there's so much to learn. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
I'm not sure I get the joke (unless it's not a joke) though :/

It's not a joke, just the best example I have of a question that's very nearly stupid.


So I've been reading the forums long enough to have gotten an idea of this concept.
(Concept = Manufactures marketing departments have to use simple easy to understand WRONG numbers to describe their product.)

I love how you describe this in detail. I think this single post contains all of the previous tidbits of information and gives the WHY behind why simple numbers are an idiotic thought/idea.

With that said, I've been trying to not go by the simple numbers. But that's all we really have.
So my question might be: how do we get around this issue of spec sheets?
or
Can the average and/or continuous values help us out?



Those are the only specs we have, and that does make it difficult to draw meaningful conclusions. Not impossible, though.

Generally speaking, the first limit a speaker will come across (as in my example of the 12" two-way box) is the midbass driver running out of linear travel in the kick region. I find that running some simulations (WinISD Pro is free, and easy to use) and playing with the different parameters will help you understand what's going on. For instance, tuning the ports higher will mean the driver is using less excursion (ie, you can go louder before hitting the stops), but loses low-frequency extension. Low frequencies need lots of displacement.

So, here's my approach:
- Find a driver that's similar (or ideally identical to) the one that's used in the cabinet you're interested in
- Run a simulation looking at the overall size of the cabinet, material thicknesses etc. All you really need is a cabinet volume.
- Tune the ports at the claimed -3dB point on the datasheet.
- Increase power, see what happens.

Generally speaking, the nicer cabinets use nicer drivers that'll take more power without complaining. Some examples:
- Cheap: http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Alpha_12A
- Medium: http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=DeltaliteII_2512
- Expensive: http://www.rcf.it/en_US/precision-transducers/neodymium-low-frequency-transducers/mb12n405

Most JBL SRX, Yamaha DXR, etc, speakers will be somewhere around the middle one, with EV ZLX being towards the cheap one, and top-end companies like Danley will use the expensive drivers.

So, once you've figured out what to simulate, run the sim and see what happens. You'll find that cabinets of comparable price will have comparable drivers. With an equal cabinet size, the tradeoff will be how low the cabinet goes vs how loud it goes.

It's important to bear in mind that the excursion issues and simulations represent the worst-case scenario, where you're (theoretically) putting in a pure tone at maximum power and finding where it'll stress the system the most. Real program material is made up of lots of sine tones, and not all of them will be at the worst-case frequency. A 12" top will do vocals at very loud levels, since much of the content is higher up. If it tried to do bass guitar at the same volume, then it'll launch the cone across the room.

FWIW, when I was testing different amps with my DIY speakers I used a very simple test to determine if an upgrade was worth it.
Dialled the same processing into each, and then played pink noise with an SPL meter at 1m. Ramped up the volume until something clipped. Just tickling the clip lights, I checked the SPL. Then repeat for the other amp. I found a 5dB improvement going for the upgrade, so I went for it. In theory, it was 4x the power so I should've got +6dB, but when you're dumping over a kilowatt into each 10" driver, some compression is bound to come up.
I think something similar should be done with other speakers - play pink noise, turn it up until some compression or limiting is happening, and record the SPL. I expect boxes with similar price and driver complement to end up within a dB or two of each other.

Continuous SPL is a good rating to have. It gives an idea of what a cabinet will thermally survive long-term, but all you can do is hope that distortion is acceptably low at that level. Hint: either way, it's gonna be much better than the box trying to do it's peak rating.

Chris

PS - mods, I can see that my post(s) on this thread might be borderline off-topic, so feel free to split them off if you like.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 12:25:34 PM »

Nathan, in general "dash" arrays (too short to be a line, get it?) suck, mostly because they're not flown.  Flown dashes are better and offer some hope of more even coverage but still represent a compromise and the HF/MF will outrun the LF performance until you have enough LF cone area (meaning a longer dash/line).

Our shop is invested heavily in vertical arrays and we very seldom send out dash deployments (although we do, mostly for competitive reasons - if we don't give the customer what he/she wants they will find a vendor who does) and we almost never ground stack them unless it's the *only* way to do the gig.

I cannot emphasize enough that ground stacked dashes suck.  Period.  I heard one last year, HDL20a rig, 4 or 5 elements on top of a sub/side in a 5000 seat auditorium for a church conference.  To call it painful would be charitable.  Laser beam HF that would make the old JBL jealous.  It was the deployment, not so much the product, that made it so.

But this is a customer service business and if, after educating the client as to why ground stacked dashes are not really what they need, take their money and do the best you can under the circumstances.

As to whether or not you should buy a system, I'd say no.  If I were starting out today as a sole operator I'd have a conventional rig for most of my work and hire in line arrays or bigger conventional systems as needed.  Own the stuff that goes out most often and that makes a difference for your client - front fills, delay ring speakers, nice looking hardware (stands, cases, cables), etc.  The profit is in the service you provide which is mostly personal experience & knowledge.  Some products make it easier to deliver your services or are more/less appropriate but the thing that makes audio successful is YOU.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 12:33:17 PM »

Buying new/used gear always gets the Mojo going. My only point to bring to this conversation is how do you plan to deploy the KF740? There will be lots of hiding costs that sometimes people forget about. Things like bumpers, shackles, spansets, lifts, extra cables, trucking etc will add up fast and always seem to take a back seat as the mind is always set on "shinny new toys".

To be clear, I do not plan on buying KF740's (or any line array for that matter) they were simply the benchmark for a rock/country act in an amphitheater/arena with seating for ~3k (I realize # of persons isn't a useful identifier, but bands/promoters love to use # of people, not dimensions and SPL).

I am glad you mentioned this for any lurkers.

JTR's Noesis 3TX mains might be an option, along with a few of the Orbit Shifters. Very portable, fairly lightweight, and tons of output. Just my $0.02

I didn't realize they were arrayable. That's awesome because I hold JTR in high regards.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 12:46:40 PM »

Nathan, in general "dash" arrays (too short to be a line, get it?) suck, mostly because they're not flown.  Flown dashes are better and offer some hope of more even coverage but still represent a compromise and the HF/MF will outrun the LF performance until you have enough LF cone area (meaning a longer dash/line).

Our shop is invested heavily in vertical arrays and we very seldom send out dash deployments (although we do, mostly for competitive reasons - if we don't give the customer what he/she wants they will find a vendor who does) and we almost never ground stack them unless it's the *only* way to do the gig.

I cannot emphasize enough that ground stacked dashes suck.  Period.  I heard one last year, HDL20a rig, 4 or 5 elements on top of a sub/side in a 5000 seat auditorium for a church conference.  To call it painful would be charitable.  Laser beam HF that would make the old JBL jealous.  It was the deployment, not so much the product, that made it so.

But this is a customer service business and if, after educating the client as to why ground stacked dashes are not really what they need, take their money and do the best you can under the circumstances.

As to whether or not you should buy a system, I'd say no.  If I were starting out today as a sole operator I'd have a conventional rig for most of my work and hire in line arrays or bigger conventional systems as needed.  Own the stuff that goes out most often and that makes a difference for your client - front fills, delay ring speakers, nice looking hardware (stands, cases, cables), etc.  The profit is in the service you provide which is mostly personal experience & knowledge.  Some products make it easier to deliver your services or are more/less appropriate but the thing that makes audio successful is YOU.

You're right, I don't want to go out and get something complicated that won't help me out. I just find myself sometimes being asked if I can cover for 3k people and unless I can do it myself it's not worth hiring out.

So If I can efficiently obtain something like 6x TH118's and 2x SH96HO (or the PG line) then I'd be set for when those events arise and in 10-15 gigs I could theoretically have it paid off.

To top it off, I'm curious as to what I could do with what I have now (or a little extra).

But this is all conjecture and mental masturbation (as JR calls it) as I won't be there for a few years.

I take it as a learning experience.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 01:34:37 PM »

You're right, I don't want to go out and get something complicated that won't help me out. I just find myself sometimes being asked if I can cover for 3k people and unless I can do it myself it's not worth hiring out.

So If I can efficiently obtain something like 6x TH118's and 2x SH96HO (or the PG line) then I'd be set for when those events arise and in 10-15 gigs I could theoretically have it paid off.

To top it off, I'm curious as to what I could do with what I have now (or a little extra).

But this is all conjecture and mental masturbation (as JR calls it) as I won't be there for a few years.

I take it as a learning experience.

I haven't evaluated (in the shop or as a solo device) any Danley product introduced since 2012 so I may not have a fair or good grasp on what various models will do, performance-wise, but I'm skeptical that a pair of SH96 would cover 3,000 people at rock show levels and I'm certain that unless you got them up in the air and aimed down, you will have the same coverage issues as with any other ground stacked conventional system or dash array (although I'd expect the SH96 would have more even tonality).

We're not in the market for DSL products so I don't pester dealers for demos with their limited inventory but if Mike Hedden wants to send me some gear to play with I'd be happy to take it out and evaluate.  ;)

There is an arena install of DSL products that I have evaluated for the end client who found a number of issues that I ascribe to the system design and very poor installation supervision (I think the steel contractor mis-read the prints and put speakers in the wrong places and aimed incorrectly).  In my report I didn't throw DSL under the bus because with the installation issues it's impossible to evaluate the speaker system until the installation issues are fixed (which will be never).  Report was accepted, filed, and I got paid.  End of story.  Oh, and the SH96HO was used extensively in the design and there are 12 or 16 of them for a 9,000 capacity arena, so I hope you understand why I'm skeptical that a pair will cover 3,000 adequately.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 01:56:54 PM »

I just find myself sometimes being asked if I can cover for 3k people and unless I can do it myself it's not worth hiring out.
Ahhhh, but there's the kicker. If your prices are competitive/in line with others, you should be able to cross-rent in sufficient PA for *any size event* and still make money on the show. (Predicated on your cross-rental source providing you with a 25% minimum cross rental discount.) Unless you just truly cannot (for time reasons, or logistical challenges, or lack of a skill-set) do the show, you get a quote from your other production partner, you mark it back up 20-40% and there's the quote to the client. (And if you're JUST getting racks-and-stacks from the other company, you still have consoles, mics, wedges, etc all being billed for on your end, so you're making money from that as well!)

-Ray
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 02:32:16 PM »

I haven't evaluated (in the shop or as a solo device) any Danley product introduced since 2012 so I may not have a fair or good grasp on what various models will do, performance-wise, but I'm skeptical that a pair of SH96 would cover 3,000 people at rock show levels and I'm certain that unless you got them up in the air and aimed down, you will have the same coverage issues as with any other ground stacked conventional system or dash array (although I'd expect the SH96 would have more even tonality).

We're not in the market for DSL products so I don't pester dealers for demos with their limited inventory but if Mike Hedden wants to send me some gear to play with I'd be happy to take it out and evaluate.  ;)

There is an arena install of DSL products that I have evaluated for the end client who found a number of issues that I ascribe to the system design and very poor installation supervision (I think the steel contractor mis-read the prints and put speakers in the wrong places and aimed incorrectly).  In my report I didn't throw DSL under the bus because with the installation issues it's impossible to evaluate the speaker system until the installation issues are fixed (which will be never).  Report was accepted, filed, and I got paid.  End of story.  Oh, and the SH96HO was used extensively in the design and there are 12 or 16 of them for a 9,000 capacity arena, so I hope you understand why I'm skeptical that a pair will cover 3,000 adequately.


Please forgive my youth/inexperience. I probably misspoke about the crowd size. Though the area size in question probably could fit that many people (it can, each person would get 10sq ft yay!).

Attached is an image of the arena in question (aerial view) with dimensions. Seat count is ~600.

If the ground stacked dash array worked* for the entire area, then what other offerings (EAW, Martin, RCF) would also work? (and why not a SH96HO or 3x SH46 a side etc.)

*it worked meaning it covered the entire area with enough volume to let a band play. Not beautifully of course. But it worked.

Ahhhh, but there's the kicker. If your prices are competitive/in line with others, you should be able to cross-rent in sufficient PA for *any size event* and still make money on the show. (Predicated on your cross-rental source providing you with a 25% minimum cross rental discount.) Unless you just truly cannot (for time reasons, or logistical challenges, or lack of a skill-set) do the show, you get a quote from your other production partner, you mark it back up 20-40% and there's the quote to the client. (And if you're JUST getting racks-and-stacks from the other company, you still have consoles, mics, wedges, etc all being billed for on your end, so you're making money from that as well!)

-Ray

Quite possibly, I'm NOT conveying the nuances of these conversations. But we are a bit/mostly off topic and should head over to my business minded questions thread for the business discussions :) [I'll set things up nicely for us over there though]
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 02:40:29 PM by Nathan Riddle »
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Patrick Cognitore

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2017, 07:36:41 PM »

So If I can efficiently obtain something like 6x TH118's and 2x SH96HO (or the PG line) then I'd be set for when those events arise and in 10-15 gigs I could theoretically have it paid off.

I can't imagine that this wouldn't cover most scenarios, particularly if you got the tops flown and angled for adequate ground plane coverage. I might even consider going with a bigger, louder sub - DBH218s or one of the BCxxx models since it's unlikely that you'd be using less sub with those tops. And assuming you have room/weight available on the truck. Even with bigger sub you could come in at half the overall weight of the KF/SB rig you mentioned in the OP.

Disclaimer, I've only heard the non-HO SH96 and TH115's.

I'm curious how a lower cost option like a pair of JTR Noesis 3TX (60/40) per side over an adequate number of  Orbit Shifters would cover this space.
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John Chiara

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 10:55:50 PM »

I haven't evaluated (in the shop or as a solo device) any Danley product introduced since 2012 so I may not have a fair or good grasp on what various models will do, performance-wise, but I'm skeptical that a pair of SH96 would cover 3,000 people at rock show levels and I'm certain that unless you got them up in the air and aimed down, you will have the same coverage issues as with any other ground stacked conventional system or dash array (although I'd expect the SH96 would have more even tonality).

We're not in the market for DSL products so I don't pester dealers for demos with their limited inventory but if Mike Hedden wants to send me some gear to play with I'd be happy to take it out and evaluate.  ;)

There is an arena install of DSL products that I have evaluated for the end client who found a number of issues that I ascribe to the system design and very poor installation supervision (I think the steel contractor mis-read the prints and put speakers in the wrong places and aimed incorrectly).  In my report I didn't throw DSL under the bus because with the installation issues it's impossible to evaluate the speaker system until the installation issues are fixed (which will be never).  Report was accepted, filed, and I got paid.  End of story.  Oh, and the SH96HO was used extensively in the design and there are 12 or 16 of them for a 9,000 capacity arena, so I hope you understand why I'm skeptical that a pair will cover 3,000 adequately.

The is a DSL install in an arena near me...about the same size. Lay person repute's say the audio is extremely good for sporting events. I am going to try and check it out in person. I think the actually needs and expectations are crucial in these kind of estimates.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 10:55:50 PM »


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