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Author Topic: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy  (Read 17470 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Anyone got any thoughts on a comparable rig to 4x KF740 over 4x SB1000z a side?

I'm particularly interested in a Danley equivalent, but I'm not opposed to JBL/RCF/EAW/Martin equivalents either.

I started thinking about this after hearing the rig recently.
This comes from my post here: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,160758.msg1502564.html#msg1502564

Like the title suggests, this is sorta mental masturbation or dreaming or fancying new gear.

Some riviting conversation would be fun, methinks.

I did PM Ivan about his thoughts for a Danley system (trying to keep forums clean of #Danley...) But he's fairly busy, so I figured I'd ping the forums :)

Below is my conversation with Ivan, I felt it might be beneficial to the community, so it's just an FYI.
Hey Ivan,

I know you're busy, so whenever you get a chance.

This comes from my post here: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,160758.msg1502564.html#msg1502564
My friend asked me to compare my system (2x SRX835p 3x TH118) to that system for the same sized area.

170ft deep & 260ft wide (arc configuration amphitheater with grass levels starting after 50ft of seating) FOH 36ft from stage.

4 questions:
1) What is the perfect Danley equivalent/approximation?
2) How would my current rig compare (SRX835p = max 137dB so 134dB cont/avg)?
3) Which direction would I go when purchasing Danley mains/subs to compare?
4) Should I post this question (and ultimately your response) to the forum for community participation and/or benefit?

I'm having a bit of a difficult time directly comparing a 4 over 4 KF740 & SB1000z rig to a Danley equivalent.
Rock/Country music style.

The subs are somewhat easier, 132dB for SB1000 and 137dB for TH118 so I'd say 2x SB's to 1x Th118 or 4TH118's would be same subbage.

The mains are more difficult though.
KF740
LF 125 dB average
MF 134 dB average
HF 134 dB average

Would a pair of SM80's keep up?

I can't remember exactly where you said it, but it was something like line arrays don't get louder with more boxes. What exactly did you mean? Because they do in a way. Was it they don't get louder in the HF because each box is theoretically hitting a different area?

Thanks!
Nathan

P.S. I was monitoring my 3x TH118's during prom a few nights ago.
The impedance rose to 8/9 ohms on my iTech8k. Is that normal? (3hr event)

I could write a book responding properly HA-HA.

You cannot simply take a simple number such as max SPL as an indication of how loud it can get.

Where did the number come from?  Is is simply a peak in the response (many times it is) and is not representative of the average actual SPL.

What does the cabinet sound like at that SPL?  It might produce it-but you may not want to listen to it.

1: I am not sure what you are considering the perfect combination.  The perfect combination results in the needed SPL and headroom, in a package that is usage for the contractor, at a price that is affordable and provides the needed coverage.  Sometimes totally even coverage is not the goal.

So without answer to the questions, there is no way to suggest a "perfect" system

2: I cannot any real usable specs (other than the limited ones) that would allow for a good comparison.

3:I am not sure I understand the question "Which direction"?  Do you mean where to purchase from?

4:  It would probably be best and give you more information if you were to post a question.  More people would give opinions.

I would guess that a single TH118 would be about equal to 2 SB1000s.  I may have a chance to measure them in a weeks or so.

I didn't say that line arrays don't add, but they do add, but they also interfere with each other, causing more output at some freq and less freq at others.

I would imagine that the SM80 would easily keep up or exceed the JBL 835-but don't know for sure.

The KF740 is a much narrower pattern than the SM80-so it would take a number of them to have the same coverage.

The whole idea behind Danley is to avoid the interference of multiple boxes that interfere and overlap.

The line arrays HF only "hit a different area" when they are very hard arrayed (which they almost never are) and then only at the top octave.  The horns are not large enough to have pattern control much below that.

What you are seeing with the increase in impedance is power compression-which is normal.

But the real questions are: what is the impedance at the beginning with low level signals?

It could also depend on how the amp "reads" the impedance.  It may or may not be a good indication of the actual impedance.

As you can tell, there is no simple answer, and a lot of "it depends".

If you post, I would break it down in to small sections-NOT a lot of questions in a single post.

It turns people away from responding, because there is to much to respond to.

Thanks, okay I see my error. I made quite a bit of assumptions and assumed you would do the same. I apologize, for summarily wasting your time. I'm still new to the whole 'it depends' methodology & single numbers aren't useful thinking ;)

You're right, It was average SPL, but that is still probably a calculation or estimation.
The numbers were pulled from yours & EAW's datasheet(s).
Say average SPL was 110 @ FOH (sounded just fine, way too loud IMO, but it was 'fine' sound quality wise) FOH=36ft or 12m away) so @ 1m 132dB is what the speakers are putting out.
Also, I get the coverage/spl/simple SPL number's aren't an accurate depiction of a speaker, but what I'm getting at is assume the 90* width and 48* height of the EAW setup, what Danley speakers would do the same.
To put it a different way, say you had the same venue/size amphitheater to run sound for. What speakers would you bring? [assume perfect world]

1: I meant, what combination of Danley gear would equal the EAW gear? (The intent being, me being eventually able to provide up to that size/scale of event easily. This ties/tied into Q3)
If riders are involved, then the DBH218 might be necessary, but it would only take 2 of them whereas it would take 4 subs. same idea behind which mains would work 'best'.

2: Gut reaction though? I honestly think 4x KF740's seem similar in capability as 2x SRX835p's or SH96

3: I meant, is buying a 4th Th118, and 2x SH96's and I could do

4: I'm leery of making the forum a 'Danley love fest' and opted for the PM, but I guess since I'm asking about specific examples it's not so bad *shrug*
Ahh, I guess I misunderstood you.

&& if you get a chance to measure both subs please do!

I get it, I think I'm trying to get at 'generalizations' which I understand aren't great for comparing things. But they were setup as a 90x40 (HxV) for all intensive purposes.
Also the FOH guy I met there was all for the Danley point source model (said he knew Jason || Josh? [someone who worked there at Danley] and was friends with him), but had issues with the scalability & rider friendly & such. We chatted a bit, but I'm still learning much from you and others, so I can't hold a hugely intellectual conversation with him.

Anyways, I did model both SH96 over 2x TH118's vs 4 KF740 ground stack dash array over 4x SB1001's. And I really don't think their models are accurate. I walked the coverage, it was not as even as it says it is in either the horizontal or vertical planes. I honestly thought I could have had better coverage with my JBL's 60x40 (not quite as loud though). The line array effect in the HF did seem to carry out to the 170ft mark as the SPL didn't drop much, but the horizontal coverage variance was quite shabby.

The models make them look perfect. It's pretty annoying honestly after dealing with direct and seeing deep phase cancellation issues (which makes it somewhat hard to design haha)

I believe they sit at 4 or 5ohms average cold. I'll look again next time I have them hooked up.

Would you mind me quoting our conversation to get the ball rolling? && because I believe what you say is very valuable to the forum!  :D

Lastly,
Thank you! I appreciate your time to mentor and instruct me/others. It is invaluable.

P.S. I'm going to plan a trip and come up to visit at some point. Now that I'm moving into more of an integrator & designer for installs I want to hear the full lineup so I can spec accordingly.

I'm sorry, but I have been really busy lately and not had much free time.

I will try to get back with you shortly.

No worries, take all the time you need.

Like I said I do appreciate your time, and I realize you have family and work and a life. Responding to my questions isn't your top priority and it shouldn't be. I'm simply grateful for all of the time you (and others) do spend mentoring me and others on this forum.

I think I'll post my question up as I thought about a good way to word my questions to keep bias out of the equation.

Let me know if you mind me quoting you for the forum's benefit.

I have no problem you quoting me.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 08:22:17 PM »

Move to Portland, Oregon and become a full time sales person/AV tech for some company up this way? Is that an option still?
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 08:57:32 PM »

Move to Portland, Oregon and become a full time sales person/AV tech for some company up this way? Is that an option still?

You know, I've been entertaining the idea of working for a larger company, so I don't have to deal with so much 'business' stuff. But then again, I enjoy being the boss ;)

There's also that whole, relocation thing and I have stuff that makes me marketable to my job area. [Though there's something to be said of if you can get paid to do what you love then do it over money money money...
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 04:38:14 AM »

Hey Nathan,

To expand on Ivan's point regarding Peak SPL specs for different boxes, run-down. It really is a pet peave of mine, so this might be a long post. Stay with me, though, and ask as many questions as you like. There are no stupid questions (though a friend of mine once asked "Chris, you know science, what do you think trees do when they're not playing musical statues?", which is the close).

Lets say I have a 15" sub in a box, and there's a decent amplifier in there that'll put 1KW through the driver.
- At 40Hz (the lowest it'll go before the cabinet unloads and the driver flaps around), sensitivity is 93dB@1w.
- At 100Hz, sensitivity is 97dB@1w
- At 1.3kHz, there's a peak where cone breakup happens, and sensitivity is 103dB@1w.

So, 1KW is +30dB so, not considering thermal effects, the sub will do the following:
- 40Hz: 123dB
- 100Hz: 127dB
- 1.3kHz: 133dB
What's my maximum SPL?

Without getting into any weirdness with crest factors or any of that crap, the loudest sound that box will produce without hitting the limiter is 133dB. I could put that on the datasheet, and many manufacturers would. It'd certainly be very impressive, a little 15" box apparently producing 133dB.
However, this is a subwoofer. It'll usually be used below 100Hz. So, being a little more honest with my specs, do I say that it'll do 123dB or 127dB within the intended passband?


You can inflate specs much further with multi-way boxes, because now there's two drivers contributing at some frequencies, and they have very different sensitivities.

Say we've got a 12" two-way box. We'll say it has 500w amps per driver (claims of 1000w peaks, though, which we'll come to later). Compression drivers are very very efficient, usually well over 100dB@1w input. Lets say this one has a 104dB@1w sensitivity. If you hit that driver with 500w for any length of time, it'll be destroyed. That won't stop the marketting team!
104dB@1w with 500w input gives you 131dB. However, our amps are capable of short-term peaks of 1KW. So we can theoretically hit 134dB!
The 12" driver, with it's 97dB@1w sensitivity, would only hit 127dB when subject to 1KW. So, when you run it really hard the HF amp will clip 7dB later than the LF amp. It'll sound terrible, and then probably catch fire.

We could approach it another way. Lets say the amplifiers are sized so that each side runs out of steam at the same time. The LF section can hit 127dB, and so can the HF section. However, at the crossover those two will sum and give you 133dB! Bam, put that on the cardboard box and ship them.
It'll only work for that narrow bandwidth where both drivers are working. Trying to get 133dB out at any other frequency would put either side 6dB into clipping. It'll sound awful.

It gets worse.
Typically, 12" tops have their ports tuned in the 50-70Hz range, meaning that, by 100Hz, the cabinet isn't helping, so the driver has to produce that SPL on its own. A 12" cone producing 127dB at 100Hz groundplane needs to move 17mm one-way. I'm not aware of any 12" midbass that can manage that. Even the sub drivers would have a difficult time.
If you try to keep within more sensible limits for that driver size, maximum SPL takes a serious hit. Moving 6mm one-way (a good 12" will manage this while keeping the midrange clean) at 100Hz gives 118dB groundplane. You'll lose about 6dB if you fly the speaker.
That 118dB is where the cabinet is going to start sounding bad, since the 12" driver can no longer keep up. 118dB is not a number you want to put on your advertising, when everyone else is claiming >130dB from a plastic box.

The reason why most direct-radiating boxes will go about as loud as each other is because they're all mechanically limited. Comparable boxes will have drivers that will be linear up to about the same SPL. You can play with the port tuning and get something that's louder but won't do much bass on it's own (sounds to me like the Yamaha DSR112 went that way), but ultimately the limiting factor will be how much air the bass driver can move. Putting a bigger amp in there won't help much if the driver hits the stops at 200w. Adding subs does help, since the crossover usually puts 100dB 6dB down, which will save the 12" driver a lot of work.

You can play around with the SPL vs excursion calculator here: http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
I find it useful for reality checks on the numbers manufacturers slap on their boxes.

Note that it only applies to direct-radiators acting as if they're in sealed boxes on the floor, which is why I picked 100Hz ealier. Ports or horns change things.

Chris
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 07:29:30 AM »

Hey Nathan,

To expand on Ivan's point regarding Peak SPL specs for different boxes, run-down. It really is a pet peave of mine, so this might be a long post. Stay with me, though, and ask as many questions as you like. There are no stupid questions (though a friend of mine once asked "Chris, you know science, what do you think trees do when they're not playing musical statues?", which is the close).

Lets say I have a 15" sub in a box, and there's a decent amplifier in there that'll put 1KW through the driver.
- At 40Hz (the lowest it'll go before the cabinet unloads and the driver flaps around), sensitivity is 93dB@1w.
- At 100Hz, sensitivity is 97dB@1w
- At 1.3kHz, there's a peak where cone breakup happens, and sensitivity is 103dB@1w.

So, 1KW is +30dB so, not considering thermal effects, the sub will do the following:
- 40Hz: 123dB
- 100Hz: 127dB
- 1.3kHz: 133dB
What's my maximum SPL?

Without getting into any weirdness with crest factors or any of that crap, the loudest sound that box will produce without hitting the limiter is 133dB. I could put that on the datasheet, and many manufacturers would. It'd certainly be very impressive, a little 15" box apparently producing 133dB.
However, this is a subwoofer. It'll usually be used below 100Hz. So, being a little more honest with my specs, do I say that it'll do 123dB or 127dB within the intended passband?


You can inflate specs much further with multi-way boxes, because now there's two drivers contributing at some frequencies, and they have very different sensitivities.

Say we've got a 12" two-way box. We'll say it has 500w amps per driver (claims of 1000w peaks, though, which we'll come to later). Compression drivers are very very efficient, usually well over 100dB@1w input. Lets say this one has a 104dB@1w sensitivity. If you hit that driver with 500w for any length of time, it'll be destroyed. That won't stop the marketting team!
104dB@1w with 500w input gives you 131dB. However, our amps are capable of short-term peaks of 1KW. So we can theoretically hit 134dB!
The 12" driver, with it's 97dB@1w sensitivity, would only hit 127dB when subject to 1KW. So, when you run it really hard the HF amp will clip 7dB later than the LF amp. It'll sound terrible, and then probably catch fire.

We could approach it another way. Lets say the amplifiers are sized so that each side runs out of steam at the same time. The LF section can hit 127dB, and so can the HF section. However, at the crossover those two will sum and give you 133dB! Bam, put that on the cardboard box and ship them.
It'll only work for that narrow bandwidth where both drivers are working. Trying to get 133dB out at any other frequency would put either side 6dB into clipping. It'll sound awful.

It gets worse.
Typically, 12" tops have their ports tuned in the 50-70Hz range, meaning that, by 100Hz, the cabinet isn't helping, so the driver has to produce that SPL on its own. A 12" cone producing 127dB at 100Hz groundplane needs to move 17mm one-way. I'm not aware of any 12" midbass that can manage that. Even the sub drivers would have a difficult time.
If you try to keep within more sensible limits for that driver size, maximum SPL takes a serious hit. Moving 6mm one-way (a good 12" will manage this while keeping the midrange clean) at 100Hz gives 118dB groundplane. You'll lose about 6dB if you fly the speaker.
That 118dB is where the cabinet is going to start sounding bad, since the 12" driver can no longer keep up. 118dB is not a number you want to put on your advertising, when everyone else is claiming >130dB from a plastic box.

The reason why most direct-radiating boxes will go about as loud as each other is because they're all mechanically limited. Comparable boxes will have drivers that will be linear up to about the same SPL. You can play with the port tuning and get something that's louder but won't do much bass on it's own (sounds to me like the Yamaha DSR112 went that way), but ultimately the limiting factor will be how much air the bass driver can move. Putting a bigger amp in there won't help much if the driver hits the stops at 200w. Adding subs does help, since the crossover usually puts 100dB 6dB down, which will save the 12" driver a lot of work.

You can play around with the SPL vs excursion calculator here: http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
I find it useful for reality checks on the numbers manufacturers slap on their boxes.

Note that it only applies to direct-radiators acting as if they're in sealed boxes on the floor, which is why I picked 100Hz ealier. Ports or horns change things.

Chris
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A simple number DOES NOT describe the whole picture.

Do you want to LISTEN to that speaker at that level?

Whether or not it can produce a particular SPL is often meaningless.

It means a little bit more if you know where the number comes from-but in many cases these days-there is NO indication of where that is.

But as long as people "believe" the simple numbers and use them to compare-the trend towards less and less data and "bold claims" will be made :(
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Jonathan Betts

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 08:33:36 AM »

 The JBL PRX 612 and Danley SM80 both have a max SPL rating of 134db. The SM80 can easily handle an outdoor rock show of 500 or more. The PRX can only handle a small outdoor crowd before it starts to fall apart.

Nathan, FWIW I have a few experiences using the 835p and SM80 at the same outdoor venue. The SM80 wins out in every way possible. PM me if you like, and I can go into detail.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 10:14:51 AM »

Hey Nathan,

To expand on Ivan's point regarding Peak SPL specs for different boxes, run-down. It really is a pet peave of mine, so this might be a long post. Stay with me, though, and ask as many questions as you like. There are no stupid questions (though a friend of mine once asked "Chris, you know science, what do you think trees do when they're not playing musical statues?", which is the close).

Thanks Chris, I do enjoy the long posts as there's so much to learn. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
I'm not sure I get the joke (unless it's not a joke) though :/

Lets say I have a 15" sub in a box, and there's a decent amplifier in there that'll put 1KW through the driver.
- At 40Hz (the lowest it'll go before the cabinet unloads and the driver flaps around), sensitivity is 93dB@1w.
- At 100Hz, sensitivity is 97dB@1w
- At 1.3kHz, there's a peak where cone breakup happens, and sensitivity is 103dB@1w.

So, 1KW is +30dB so, not considering thermal effects, the sub will do the following:
- 40Hz: 123dB
- 100Hz: 127dB
- 1.3kHz: 133dB
What's my maximum SPL?

Without getting into any weirdness with crest factors or any of that crap, the loudest sound that box will produce without hitting the limiter is 133dB. I could put that on the datasheet, and many manufacturers would. It'd certainly be very impressive, a little 15" box apparently producing 133dB.
However, this is a subwoofer. It'll usually be used below 100Hz. So, being a little more honest with my specs, do I say that it'll do 123dB or 127dB within the intended passband?


You can inflate specs much further with multi-way boxes, because now there's two drivers contributing at some frequencies, and they have very different sensitivities.

Say we've got a 12" two-way box. We'll say it has 500w amps per driver (claims of 1000w peaks, though, which we'll come to later). Compression drivers are very very efficient, usually well over 100dB@1w input. Lets say this one has a 104dB@1w sensitivity. If you hit that driver with 500w for any length of time, it'll be destroyed. That won't stop the marketting team!
104dB@1w with 500w input gives you 131dB. However, our amps are capable of short-term peaks of 1KW. So we can theoretically hit 134dB!
The 12" driver, with it's 97dB@1w sensitivity, would only hit 127dB when subject to 1KW. So, when you run it really hard the HF amp will clip 7dB later than the LF amp. It'll sound terrible, and then probably catch fire.

We could approach it another way. Lets say the amplifiers are sized so that each side runs out of steam at the same time. The LF section can hit 127dB, and so can the HF section. However, at the crossover those two will sum and give you 133dB! Bam, put that on the cardboard box and ship them.
It'll only work for that narrow bandwidth where both drivers are working. Trying to get 133dB out at any other frequency would put either side 6dB into clipping. It'll sound awful.

It gets worse.
Typically, 12" tops have their ports tuned in the 50-70Hz range, meaning that, by 100Hz, the cabinet isn't helping, so the driver has to produce that SPL on its own. A 12" cone producing 127dB at 100Hz groundplane needs to move 17mm one-way. I'm not aware of any 12" midbass that can manage that. Even the sub drivers would have a difficult time.
If you try to keep within more sensible limits for that driver size, maximum SPL takes a serious hit. Moving 6mm one-way (a good 12" will manage this while keeping the midrange clean) at 100Hz gives 118dB groundplane. You'll lose about 6dB if you fly the speaker.
That 118dB is where the cabinet is going to start sounding bad, since the 12" driver can no longer keep up. 118dB is not a number you want to put on your advertising, when everyone else is claiming >130dB from a plastic box.

The reason why most direct-radiating boxes will go about as loud as each other is because they're all mechanically limited. Comparable boxes will have drivers that will be linear up to about the same SPL. You can play with the port tuning and get something that's louder but won't do much bass on it's own (sounds to me like the Yamaha DSR112 went that way), but ultimately the limiting factor will be how much air the bass driver can move. Putting a bigger amp in there won't help much if the driver hits the stops at 200w. Adding subs does help, since the crossover usually puts 100dB 6dB down, which will save the 12" driver a lot of work.

You can play around with the SPL vs excursion calculator here: http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
I find it useful for reality checks on the numbers manufacturers slap on their boxes.

Note that it only applies to direct-radiators acting as if they're in sealed boxes on the floor, which is why I picked 100Hz ealier. Ports or horns change things.

Chris

So I've been reading the forums long enough to have gotten an idea of this concept.
(Concept = Manufactures marketing departments have to use simple easy to understand WRONG numbers to describe their product.)

I love how you describe this in detail. I think this single post contains all of the previous tidbits of information and gives the WHY behind why simple numbers are an idiotic thought/idea.

With that said, I've been trying to not go by the simple numbers. But that's all we really have.
So my question might be: how do we get around this issue of spec sheets?
or
Can the average and/or continuous values help us out?

I should get into measuring speakers and seeing what they are actually capable; but I need the training, tools, and $$ to do so first. The intent of this statement is, I still have a hard time believing well meaning manufactures inflate their specs so much as to pull numbers out of their a$$ (1khz in a sub) or (a peak at 4khz on the mains [cuz no one wants to listen to that, okay maybe the ice pick in the forehead guys but those people are insane]).

I still find it unfathomable that a manufacture with a good reputation (EAW,Martin,RCF,Meyer?) would pull numbers outside of the intended bandwidth, or pull straight peaks to get the numbers. Obviously I haven't been around much and I'm naïve to think this. But it just bothers me to no end that someone would do that. [Take the processed signal, keep average distortion to a 10% level, take the continuous average SPL that won't blow up the speaker after 100hrs] < that is the spec I want. I would find that spec useful (at least in my naivety I believe it would).

My point of view is those are the only specs we have. How else do/should we compare speakers without ever having seen/heard them?

My primary intent of this post (not the quotes of my convo with Ivan [though I am equally intrigued to learn about the actual science of comparing speakers]) was to draw on the experience (people who have mixed/used, the different speakers in question) who can give a better correlation/opinion on the matter.
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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 10:15:34 AM »

The JBL PRX 612 and Danley SM80 both have a max SPL rating of 134db. The SM80 can easily handle an outdoor rock show of 500 or more. The PRX can only handle a small outdoor crowd before it starts to fall apart.

Nathan, FWIW I have a few experiences using the 835p and SM80 at the same outdoor venue. The SM80 wins out in every way possible. PM me if you like, and I can go into detail.

Thanks Jonathan, I'll PM you. Any reason why you feel that wouldn't be beneficial to the forum?
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Steve Ferreira

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 11:21:32 AM »

Buying new/used gear always gets the Mojo going. My only point to bring to this conversation is how do you plan to deploy the KF740? There will be lots of hiding costs that sometimes people forget about. Things like bumpers, shackles, spansets, lifts, extra cables, trucking etc will add up fast and always seem to take a back seat as the mind is always set on "shinny new toys".
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Steve Litcher

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 11:25:28 AM »

JTR's Noesis 3TX mains might be an option, along with a few of the Orbit Shifters. Very portable, fairly lightweight, and tons of output. Just my $0.02

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Re: KF740 comparable rig(s)? Dreaming about new gear that I shouldn't buy
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 11:25:28 AM »


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