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Author Topic: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music  (Read 3076 times)

Tamar Ghobria

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2017, 02:45:45 pm »

What speakers did you use? How many people?


I was doing a large show about a month or so ago.

The local crew was REAL REAL skeptical about the use of 1 cabinet per side, when the "normal system in that room was 12-16 cabinets per side.

When we fired it up, one of the guys was at FOH and he said "WOW-I can't believe how LOUD it is, and you can still talk.  You CAN'T do that with a "XYZ (very popular brand) line array.

He was an instant believer.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2017, 05:20:02 pm »

What speakers did you use? How many people?
The main PA was a single J3-94 per side.  We used 2 SM100s for front fills.

The subs were 2 BC415s on each side and 6 PG218s in the middle.

I am not sure how many people, but the venue was an old Amory that took up a full city block.

Here is a link to a video near the back of the venue.

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/1603404466355593/

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Ivan Beaver
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 11:59:33 pm »

The main PA was a single J3-94 per side.  We used 2 SM100s for front fills.

The subs were 2 BC415s on each side and 6 PG218s in the middle.

I am not sure how many people, but the venue was an old Amory that took up a full city block.

Here is a link to a video near the back of the venue.

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/1603404466355593/

Not trying to threadjack, but how does one run different subs in this configuration?
Usually its frowned upon, correct?
I should probably look at the phase responses, or better yet model it lol
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2017, 10:08:18 am »

Not trying to threadjack, but how does one run different subs in this configuration?
Usually its frowned upon, correct?
I should probably look at the phase responses, or better yet model it lol
Yes running different subs is "usually" a bad idea.

This is because of the different phase response.  So some freq might get louder while others will get quieter.

The BEST way is not to model them (the models only show show much and phase response of different models is not part of the model data-which is the MOST IMPORTANT part in this case), but rather to actually MEASURE them together.

That is what I did.  I put them together, measured, looked at the phase response, the delay times inside the cabinets etc.

Once I saw that they would play well together side by side (with a little delay only), then I could put that information into the model for the room.

The reason for using the different subs in this cases was simply-that is what the provider owned.

So I came up with a configuration that provided a good coverage for the space.

The actual results (the stuff that REALLY matters) was stunned looks from everybody there about how much sound there was and how clean it was.

So-once again-IT DEPENDS.  You can mix SOME subs, but you MUST do your "homework" ahead of time to be sure it will work.
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Ivan Beaver
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2017, 01:06:48 pm »

Yes running different subs is "usually" a bad idea.

This is because of the different phase response.  So some freq might get louder while others will get quieter.

The BEST way is not to model them (the models only show show much and phase response of different models is not part of the model data-which is the MOST IMPORTANT part in this case), but rather to actually MEASURE them together.

That is what I did.  I put them together, measured, looked at the phase response, the delay times inside the cabinets etc.

Once I saw that they would play well together side by side (with a little delay only), then I could put that information into the model for the room.

The reason for using the different subs in this cases was simply-that is what the provider owned.

So I came up with a configuration that provided a good coverage for the space.

The actual results (the stuff that REALLY matters) was stunned looks from everybody there about how much sound there was and how clean it was.

So-once again-IT DEPENDS.  You can mix SOME subs, but you MUST do your "homework" ahead of time to be sure it will work.

Makes sense, though with just the BC's the spl plot is insane. I think it was 20Hz @~103db @~100ft
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James Hennessy

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2017, 03:44:50 pm »

So I pulled the trigger and picked up 2 x TH118 subs and a DNA20K4PRO amp.  Due to budget I'm currently using a pair of ETX-12P cabinets for my tops that I already owned.  Also, the amplifier is currently running off a 20 amp circuit.  So far I haven't been able to get the tops sounding right with these subs at lower volumes.  I haven't had a chance to really crank them up yet and give them good listen.

I'm currently using the factory presets for the TH118, although I have experimented with different high and low pass crossovers.  At 120 Hz I've found that some kick drums sound a bit distorted.  I haven't been able to find info about what the filter used on the ETX-12P tops looks like but in a promotional video I watched an EV tech described their filters as a brick wall which makes me think it's a much steeper curve than the 24db Butterworth filter on the DNA20K4PRO. 

Does anyone with some experience using the TH118 have any advice they can offer on cross over points for the subs and tops?  Any EQ suggestions?  I'm using a 9ms delay on the tops since that's what I've read people recommend here in other threads.  Is the less than optimal electricity an issue? 
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Rick Alan

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2017, 03:56:08 pm »

120v should not be an issue.  I run a DNA20K with 2 SM80 and 4 TH118 off 120v more often then not.
Try any where between 5 - 10 ms of delay.
Also crank up the rig with high quality music (wav.file)

Rick

So I pulled the trigger and picked up 2 x TH118 subs and a DNA20K4PRO amp.  Due to budget I'm currently using a pair of ETX-12P cabinets for my tops that I already owned.  Also, the amplifier is currently running off a 20 amp circuit.  So far I haven't been able to get the tops sounding right with these subs at lower volumes.  I haven't had a chance to really crank them up yet and give them good listen.

I'm currently using the factory presets for the TH118, although I have experimented with different high and low pass crossovers.  At 120 Hz I've found that some kick drums sound a bit distorted.  I haven't been able to find info about what the filter used on the ETX-12P tops looks like but in a promotional video I watched an EV tech described their filters as a brick wall which makes me think it's a much steeper curve than the 24db Butterworth filter on the DNA20K4PRO. 

Does anyone with some experience using the TH118 have any advice they can offer on cross over points for the subs and tops?  Any EQ suggestions?  I'm using a 9ms delay on the tops since that's what I've read people recommend here in other threads.  Is the less than optimal electricity an issue?
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James Hennessy

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2017, 04:14:39 pm »

120v should not be an issue.  I run a DNA20K with 2 SM80 and 4 TH118 off 120v more often then not.
Try any where between 5 - 10 ms of delay.
Also crank up the rig with high quality music (wav.file)

Rick

Hey, Rick.  Thanks for the quick response.  Great to hear that you're running that much off a conventional circuit without problems.

My source was Google Music which is pretty high quality but not a lossless format so I will give your .wav suggestion a try.  The distortion, or farty sound, that I'm hearing tends to be with a specific genre of music.  That Canadian hip hop, downtempo sound like Kaytranada, The Internet, Drake, etc. which people tend to describe as an "underwater" sound.  With other genres it sounds fine.  Do you need to change up your EQ significantly based on the genre of music you're playing?
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Rick Alan

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2017, 04:32:19 pm »

With mumble rap its hard.  They make there beats tight sounding around 80-100hz then add low end bass at around 60hz.  Since we rent to a lot of DJ's we run our sub on an aux send so we can play with it live. 

Rick

Hey, Rick.  Thanks for the quick response.  Great to hear that you're running that much off a conventional circuit without problems.

My source was Google Music which is pretty high quality but not a lossless format so I will give your .wav suggestion a try.  The distortion, or farty sound, that I'm hearing tends to be with a specific genre of music.  That Canadian hip hop, downtempo sound like Kaytranada, The Internet, Drake, etc. which people tend to describe as an "underwater" sound.  With other genres it sounds fine.  Do you need to change up your EQ significantly based on the genre of music you're playing?
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James Hennessy

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Re: SM80 + Th118/PG118 for techno and house music
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2017, 05:31:25 pm »

With mumble rap its hard.  They make there beats tight sounding around 80-100hz then add low end bass at around 60hz.  Since we rent to a lot of DJ's we run our sub on an aux send so we can play with it live. 

Rick

I really appreciate the feedback.  I've been enjoying playing around with System Engineer and the DNA20K4PRO.  It seems like a great interface for configuring the amp and making changes on the fly. 
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