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[Don T. Williams]

I have found this thread to be very interesting.  I had 24 Slim Par Pro Quad's on the upstage truss (replacing 60 1K Pars) and my LD wanted something with "richer" colors.  There were some shades of color using gels on 1K pars that she just couldn't duplicate with the leds.  The Slim pars looked good and were plenty bright, but . . . 

So I purchased a different brand of RGBAW+Uv thinking this would solve the problem.  It really didn't.  When we loaded the profile into the Hog we knew why.  They really don't do the colors she wants even with the added Uv, so I'm shopping again.  Visually check the colors actually produced before you purchase.

I have one other interesting finding.  The 12 X 10W (or 12W or 15W) leds were actually be to bright on my rig.  We always have to dim them down.  These are used on an XTX 32 portable stage, so they don't fly at 25' or 30' in the air and that makes a difference.  I'm checking into some 6 x 12W and 7 X 15W hex instruments.  These may be plenty bright.  I'm still in the research stage comparing colors!

[Jeff Lelko]

This has been a good thread for me. I've been searching for a low cost (150ish) light, for speaker mounting as a front wash. I want about a 30 deg beam angle, and it must have amber. I like the look of the COB's, but the ones with amber are expensive.

After looking at all of these lights I stumbled across the ADJ Hex 5. A 30 deg beam, with RBGAWU, for $135 (B stock). Probably not the brightest in this style, but I don't need it to be.

Yeah, that's been quite the trick - finding something with decent colors and output that also isn't too expensive to be practical. If I read correctly from the Front Lighting thread that you're only running 70w lamps in your 38s, I would think the ADJ Hex 5 would be a pretty reasonable match.  The photometrics aren't too impressive, but from your pictures you probably wouldn't need much more.  Two things come to mind - I'm not sure if these have fans (if that's a big deal for you), and they use IEC power linking.  The SlimPar Pros have Edison outs, which I find nice so that you won't have to stock the extra type of cable.

I have found this thread to be very interesting.  I had 24 Slim Par Pro Quad's on the upstage truss (replacing 60 1K Pars) and my LD wanted something with "richer" colors.  There were some shades of color using gels on 1K pars that she just couldn't duplicate with the leds.  The Slim pars looked good and were plenty bright, but . . . 

Do the 24 Slim Par Pro Quads really replace your 60 1k Pars (honest question), and if so, in which colors?  I'd think your LEDs will match or excel at the deeper colors, but would be really surprised if they could top the 1k Pars in light yellows and ambers.  How wide of a beam angle did those pars have?  I haven't A/B'd the lights you have against anything in my inventory, but just looking at the numbers I'd expect output closer to my 250w Par 38s.  Interesting point though, and I'm hoping to bring a 250w Par with me when I visit a few showrooms later this year.

I have one other interesting finding.  The 12 X 10W (or 12W or 15W) leds were actually be to bright on my rig.  We always have to dim them down...

And that's a whole other point that has yet to come up in this thread.  From my point of view, I don't mind dimming fill light as necessary to achieve the design I'm trying to create.  As long as the LED Pars have decent dimming characteristics, going darker isn't a problem.  When you spin the units around to blast the audience with eye candy effects, it's another story.  I think it's pointless to buy lights for that specific application that will always have to be dimmed...which is why I'm gravitating to the idea of getting 3-4 dozen of the smaller, lower-end (but decently professional) Pars like the SlimPar Pros or SIXPAR 100s for generic applications and then maybe 1-2 dozen of much higher output units for larger scale front fill when the time and cost effectiveness are right.  Fun stuff!

[Don T. Williams]

Yeah, that's been quite the trick - finding something with decent colors and output that also isn't too expensive to be practical. If I read correctly from the Front Lighting thread that you're only running 70w lamps in your 38s, I would think the ADJ Hex 5 would be a pretty reasonable match.  The photometrics aren't too impressive, but from your pictures you probably wouldn't need much more.  Two things come to mind - I'm not sure if these have fans (if that's a big deal for you), and they use IEC power linking.  The SlimPar Pros have Edison outs, which I find nice so that you won't have to stock the extra type of cable.
 
Do the 24 Slim Par Pro Quads really replace your 60 1k Pars (honest question), and if so, in which colors?  I'd think your LEDs will match or excel at the deeper colors, but would be really surprised if they could top the 1k Pars in light yellows and ambers.  How wide of a beam angle did those pars have?  I haven't A/B'd the lights you have against anything in my inventory, but just looking at the numbers I'd expect output closer to my 250w Par 38s.  Interesting point though, and I'm hoping to bring a 250w Par with me when I visit a few showrooms later this year.

And that's a whole other point that has yet to come up in this thread.  From my point of view, I don't mind dimming fill light as necessary to achieve the design I'm trying to create.  As long as the LED Pars have decent dimming characteristics, going darker isn't a problem.  When you spin the units around to blast the audience with eye candy effects, it's another story.  I think it's pointless to buy lights for that specific application that will always have to be dimmed...which is why I'm gravitating to the idea of getting 3-4 dozen of the smaller, lower-end (but decently professional) Pars like the SlimPar Pros or SIXPAR 100s for generic applications and then maybe 1-2 dozen of much higher output units for larger scale front fill when the time and cost effectiveness are right.  Fun stuff!

Jeff, to answer your question, the 24 LED upstage light rig we use really has replaced the 60 1KPar64's, but as is the case with many things on this forum, it depends.  No, they can't look exactly like the 1K VNSP's and NSP's that were part of the "standard" regional lighting tech rider.  That rider usually ask for 60 1k's narrow's upstage and 60 1K's downstage, usually with MFL's in 3 or 4 colors and a mix of some narrow no-colors.  Just so you will know our LED front truss has 16 RGBA's and 8 AW's.

In terms of output I think the LED's are equal to 1K's with typical gels.  There are some colors that look better, and some as stated, that are harder to reproduce.  With the 1K Pars, usually only about 1/4 to 1/3 were ever on in a scene, again usually with 2 to 4 colors maximum.  With LEDs, because any instrument can be any color for any scene there are things that can be done that could never have been done with just 60 par cans.  It's not a copy of a conventional light plot, but has so far been acceptable and equivalent.  Like other thing in our industry, lighting has changed with the advent of new technology.  We have had to add a dozen (or two) movers to keep current, but you would probably need these with a conventional rig too.

I'm certain there may be band LD's that will not accept my LED rig, but I haven't had to use my 120K Par can rig in 5 or 6 years.  The LED's are acceptable and I could not be happier.  I am working the same size regional shows and level of acts that I have for more that 15 years (and yes I'm happy doing this level work).

I think you are on the right track with your plans.  Keep the forum informed on what you find that works well for you.

Don

[Jeff Lelko]

Jeff, to answer your question, the 24 LED upstage light rig we use really has replaced the 60 1KPar64's, but as is the case with many things on this forum, it depends.  No, they can't look exactly like the 1K VNSP's and NSP's that were part of the "standard" regional lighting tech rider.  That rider usually ask for 60 1k's narrow's upstage and 60 1K's downstage, usually with MFL's in 3 or 4 colors and a mix of some narrow no-colors.  Just so you will know our LED front truss has 16 RGBA's and 8 AW's.

In terms of output I think the LED's are equal to 1K's with typical gels.  There are some colors that look better, and some as stated, that are harder to reproduce.  With the 1K Pars, usually only about 1/4 to 1/3 were ever on in a scene, again usually with 2 to 4 colors maximum.  With LEDs, because any instrument can be any color for any scene there are things that can be done that could never have been done with just 60 par cans.  It's not a copy of a conventional light plot, but has so far been acceptable and equivalent.  Like other thing in our industry, lighting has changed with the advent of new technology.  We have had to add a dozen (or two) movers to keep current, but you would probably need these with a conventional rig too.

I'm certain there may be band LD's that will not accept my LED rig, but I haven't had to use my 120K Par can rig in 5 or 6 years.  The LED's are acceptable and I could not be happier.  I am working the same size regional shows and level of acts that I have for more that 15 years (and yes I'm happy doing this level work).

I think you are on the right track with your plans.  Keep the forum informed on what you find that works well for you.

Don

Great information Don, thanks!  Yeah, I know it's never going to be a 1:1 equivalent - I just don't want to take a step backwards and compromise an "industry standard" rig for something that doesn't match up to what most are expecting, especially in output.  On the other side, as you mentioned, LEDs let us do various effects and looks that aren't easily possible with conventional lighting.  Back to what TJ said though, it's a question of where do you draw the line then?  Can I just be happy with a basic light, or for a little bit more I can have a zoom model, and for a little bit more I can have a moving wash...  I'll certainly follow up with my eventual purchase (probably closer to the autumn/winter timeframe given the other irons in the fire right now), but it's definitely a good discussion and food for thought!

[Don T. Williams]

Great information Don, thanks!  Yeah, I know it's never going to be a 1:1 equivalent - I just don't want to take a step backwards and compromise an "industry standard" rig for something that doesn't match up to what most are expecting, especially in output.  On the other side, as you mentioned, LEDs let us do various effects and looks that aren't easily possible with conventional lighting.  Back to what TJ said though, it's a question of where do you draw the line then?  Can I just be happy with a basic light, or for a little bit more I can have a zoom model, and for a little bit more I can have a moving wash...  I'll certainly follow up with my eventual purchase (probably closer to the autumn/winter timeframe given the other irons in the fire right now), but it's definitely a good discussion and food for thought!

I'm asking Jeff and others on this thread.  Has a combination of intelligent profile spots and moving zoom wash lights become the "new standard" regional lighting rig?  Say about 10 of each with some "beam" lights for aerial effects thrown in?  Or, are band LD's bringing in their on "floor" package of movers (or asking the local vendor to supply them) and dealing with whatever else the local vendor might have for wash lighting?

The other trend I see for regional companies is a lot more bands without a LD and minimal lighting requirements.  I've stated on the forum before, my company is doing a lot more "racks and stacks" type audio gigs because of technology changes.  These acts usually depend on locally provided general lighting.  Physically small but powerful digital consoles and IEM systems that take up very little trailer (or bus) space have me leaving my consoles and wedges at home more and more.  Maybe it's just the size of the events I'm servicing, but this is the trend I'm seeing.  Anyone else experiencing this?

[Phoenixx Neil]

Take a look at some ETC color source pars. ETC looks like they are trying to hit the lower end side of products for small gigs/companies/churches. They are "budget friendly" and as we all know, etc makes some great stuff. These color source pars are quad (RGBL [lime]) which they claim to have a better color gamut compared to LED fixtures with A or W.

[Jeff Lelko]

I'm asking Jeff and others on this thread.  Has a combination of intelligent profile spots and moving zoom wash lights become the "new standard" regional lighting rig?  Say about 10 of each with some "beam" lights for aerial effects thrown in?  Or, are band LD's bringing in their on "floor" package of movers (or asking the local vendor to supply them) and dealing with whatever else the local vendor might have for wash lighting?

The other trend I see for regional companies is a lot more bands without a LD and minimal lighting requirements.  I've stated on the forum before, my company is doing a lot more "racks and stacks" type audio gigs because of technology changes.  These acts usually depend on locally provided general lighting.  Physically small but powerful digital consoles and IEM systems that take up very little trailer (or bus) space have me leaving my consoles and wedges at home more and more.  Maybe it's just the size of the events I'm servicing, but this is the trend I'm seeing.  Anyone else experiencing this?

Yeah, at least where I am (East-Central Florida) it's been a very mixed bag and basically "yes" to both of your questions.  I do a wide variety of events too - mostly corporate and municipal jobs, but I still get the occasional band.  That said, I can't remember the last time I sent out a system that didn't have movers in it.  Even for the corporate stuff - not only do the movers have the "modern look" that the clients are asking (and paying) for, but I've found I can do more with less of them.  I'll still throw in some conventional Pars as needed, but I would agree that the 120K rig is slowly giving way to a mixture of moving lights and LED eye candy.  Even though I've already started the transition to mostly moving light rigs, I still have yet to completely jump ship from the trusty halogen Par 64!  Maybe this year will be the year?  That's why I was curious to hear more about your Slim Par Pro Quads.  Regarding the movers though, 10 of each sounds about right so long as they're decently bright.  I usually group mine by 6s or 8s, but that's completely up to your design requirements and personal tastes.

I definitely agree that at least by me a lot more bands travel without an LD and have minimal lighting requirements.  In those cases, I design and operate the show myself so my inventory is completely at my disposal.  I'll put something together that looks nice and fits the venue and budget, and since I'm operating all my own equipment I can really make the most of it.  Even the bands that do travel with an LD usually sideline their own equipment when they see my inventory list and would rather pay to use it over what they normally have.  Now, keep in mind the bands I work with are mostly just regionally touring and don't have much along the lines of system outside of what you'd expect for a typical group of that size, so when faced with lighting an outdoor amphitheater they're quick to admit their Inno Spots aren't quite up to the task!  That, or once they see what an Inno Pocket Wash versus a Studio Beam looks like, the Inno Washes go away...  I've also done a number of Bring Your Own Board events - where the event sponsor hired a rig but not an operator, so the band/performers hire me as an LD to come in and busk the show live, usually with my own ETC console if I'm not familiar with what's provided.  Occasionally I'll supplement with a few of my own fixtures too, though it all depends on what we need.  Sometimes that's with a band, other times it's at a theater, but those are somewhat rare for me.

Hope that helps to answer your question Don!

Take a look at some ETC color source pars. ETC looks like they are trying to hit the lower end side of products for small gigs/companies/churches. They are "budget friendly" and as we all know, etc makes some great stuff. These color source pars are quad (RGBL [lime]) which they claim to have a better color gamut compared to LED fixtures with A or W.

Oh, I've taken a look at them and walked away every time.  For what they are, I would certainly not consider them to be budget friendly and while their colors are better than the generic LED Par, I don't feel they're a strong contender as a replacement or even really an upgrade in this case.  They have a use, and while I can't speak for Don or Michael, I can't see adding those into my system just yet.  Kind of like what I mentioned further up, if all I need to do is blast colors on a wall, build a pixel grid, or uplight a truss, these would be a waste to spend the extra money on.  A basic SlimPar would do the job nicely.  Case in point - even the light rig used during the Super Bowl Halftime Show this year had some Chauvet and ADJ sprinkled in with the larger Clay Paky and Vari-lite product!  It's all about using the right tool for the job.  At the same time, ColorSource Pars are not the direction I want to go for higher output front light (I want better beam control).  I also wouldn't want to take them outside.  For a small to medium sized indoor venue with the budget for nicer equipment I'd say they'd be a contender, but not for a generic multipurpose LED Par Can.   

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Oh, I've taken a look at them (ETC Colorsource) and walked away every time.  For what they are, I would certainly not consider them to be budget friendly and while their colors are better than the generic LED Par, I don't feel they're a strong contender as a replacement or even really an upgrade in this case.  They have a use, and while I can't speak for Don or Michael, I can't see adding those into my system just yet.  Kind of like what I mentioned further up, if all I need to do is blast colors on a wall, build a pixel grid, or uplight a truss, these would be a waste to spend the extra money on.  A basic SlimPar would do the job nicely.  Case in point - even the light rig used during the Super Bowl Halftime Show this year had some Chauvet and ADJ sprinkled in with the larger Clay Paky and Vari-lite product!  It's all about using the right tool for the job.  At the same time, ColorSource Pars are not the direction I want to go for higher output front light (I want better beam control).  I also wouldn't want to take them outside.  For a small to medium sized indoor venue with the budget for nicer equipment I'd say they'd be a contender, but not for a generic multipurpose LED Par Can.   

I put in some Colorsource PAR deep blue fixtures at a church.  They're fine for what they are - a well made, simple light fixture with a decent color gamut.  They won't blow you away with brightness, but they are brighter than my SlimPAR Pro RGBAs.  They're not really a rock n roll fixture, and they're fairly large physically.  The Chauvet Rogue R1 wash was only about 30% more money than a Colorsource PAR, and movers are so handy it was hard for me to get excited about a static fixture.  As I mentioned above, I then talked myself into the R2 wash, which is something else entirely.

Most of the shows I see and do myself have a basic white PAR wash, usually conventional, and all the color comes from movers.  My SlimPARs generally are used as uplights for the backdrop and they work fine for that.

[Don T. Williams]

Jeff, I'm with you on the ETC.  I'm sure it's a good product, but expensive and heavy.  Why buy one of them when I can get 3 or 4 other LED wash lights that 90% of the LD's (if there even is an LD) were just looking for 5 or 6 colors to complement the movers.  And Jeff, I do usually have a some movers for all the shows.  I've only had one group that ask us not to use them.  We all know a mover doesn't have to move to be a usable light.

[Dave Garoutte]

I went from the Slimpar pros to the Colordash quad7 and hex7 for my events.
Improved quality of colors and higher frequency dimming has made my video folks happier.
They're smaller too.
I'm getting ready to try the Colorado Solo1 because of its zooming.

Full disclosure, I'm a Chauvet dealer.

[ProSoundWeb Community]