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Author Topic: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware  (Read 6912 times)

Jonathan Johnson

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Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« on: February 07, 2017, 03:52:34 PM »

So I got a cheap outdoor LED floodlight via a popular online shopping site. Listing said it was 100W, somewhere around 10,000 lumens. Manufactured in China. The price was around $35.

It came via brown truck yesterday. First of all, there's no nomenclature plate listing anything about the product, not even a part number (there was a label on the outside of the box). No electrical specs anywhere on the outside of the light. No indication of safety certification, no UL or other markings. (The local AHJ might say "no go.")

The power lead was ridiculously short at 10"; 18 AWG type SVT 3-conductor. That length might work in China, but to comply with the NEC here in the United States, you're gonna need more wire than that to get it properly into a typical weathertight junction box and make your connections.

Being the curious sort, of course I had to grab my screwdriver and open it up. Besides, I needed to install a longer lead.

The first thing that caught my attention was that the ground wire in the power lead was not even connected to the cast aluminum shell of the light! Just the cut end of the insulated wire, not stripped, no attempt at termination at all.

The second thing is that the driver pack, which has some kind of sealed metal case, was glued to the shell with what appears to be silicone sealant. Now, I'm not expert in materials science, but I don't think silicone rubber is a very good conductor of heat. After all, my wife has silicone rubber potholders!

I went ahead and replaced the power lead. I crimped a ring terminal on the ground wire and screwed it to an available threaded hole inside the shell. So that part was an easy fix.

Now I'm wondering what to do about the driver pack. I'd like to use something more thermally conductive between it and the shell, to improve heat dissipation and hopefully extend the service life of the light.

I guess I get what I pay for. "Buy once, cry once" and all that. By the time I get done fixing this cheap light, the time invested could be worth more than the price difference between this and a better, more expensive product. Oh well, I'm not placing much value on my time since I'm doing this during personal downtime.

Even if the light did have UL markings, I still would have opened it up for inspection (because I'm the curious sort). And if the ground wasn't connected, I'd probably be making an inquiry with UL. That could be a pretty serious safety defect.

At least it provides bright, even light coverage over a large area with no discernible flicker, which was what I was hoping for. Not as bright as a 500W quartz halogen worklight in the center of the beam, but probably twice the coverage area. It's going on the back of my barn to light up the barnyard.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 04:00:45 PM by Jonathan Johnson »
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 03:57:46 PM »

So I got a cheap outdoor LED floodlight via a popular online shopping site. Listing said it was 100W, somewhere around 10,000 lumens. Manufactured in China. The price was around $35.

It came via brown truck yesterday. First of all, there's no nomenclature plate listing anything about the product, not even a part number (there was a label on the outside of the box). No electrical specs anywhere on the outside of the light. No indication of safety certification, no UL or other markings. (The local AHJ might say "no go.")

The power lead was ridiculously short at 10"; 18 AWG type SVT 3-conductor. That length might work in China, but to comply with the NEC here in the United States, you're gonna need more wire than that to get it properly into a typical weathertight junction box and make your connections.

Being the curious sort, of course I had to grab my screwdriver and open it up. Besides, I needed to install a longer lead.

The first thing that caught my attention was that the ground wire in the power lead was not even connected to the cast aluminum shell of the light! Just the cut end of the insulate wire, not stripped, no attempt at termination at all.

The second thing is that the driver pack, which has some kind of sealed metal case, was glued to the shell with what appears to be silicone sealant. Now, I'm not expert in materials science, but I don't think silicone rubber is a very good conductor of heat. After all, my wife has silicone rubber potholders!

I went ahead and replaced the power lead. I crimped a ring terminal on the ground wire and screwed it to an available threaded hole inside the shell. So that part was an easy fix.

Now I'm wondering what to do about the driver pack. I'd like to use something more thermally conductive between it and the shell, to improve heat dissipation and hopefully extend the service life of the light.

I guess I get what I pay for. "Buy once, cry once" and all that. By the time I get done fixing this cheap light, the time invested could be worth more than the price difference between this and a better, more expensive product. Oh well, I'm not placing much value on my time since I'm doing this during personal downtime.

Even if the light did have UL markings, I still would have opened it up for inspection (because I'm the curious sort). And if the ground wasn't connected, I'd probably be making an inquiry with UL. That could be a pretty serious safety defect.

At least it provides bright, even light coverage over a large area with no discernible flicker, which was what I was hoping for.
And therin lies the problem with some of this "offshore" product! Had a similar experience with an LED panel system from China.
Not a wiff of certification to be found. Should be illegal to import!
I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here in Canada, you can get a "special inspections" sticker after inspection by a certified person.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 04:01:19 PM »

So I got a cheap outdoor LED floodlight via a popular online shopping site. Listing said it was 100W, somewhere around 10,000 lumens. Manufactured in China. The price was around $35.

It came via brown truck yesterday. First of all, there's no nomenclature plate listing anything about the product, not even a part number (there was a label on the outside of the box). No electrical specs anywhere on the outside of the light. No indication of safety certification, no UL or other markings. (The local AHJ might say "no go.")

The power lead was ridiculously short at 10"; 18 AWG type SVT 3-conductor. That length might work in China, but to comply with the NEC here in the United States, you're gonna need more wire than that to get it properly into a typical weathertight junction box and make your connections.

Being the curious sort, of course I had to grab my screwdriver and open it up. Besides, I needed to install a longer lead.

The first thing that caught my attention was that the ground wire in the power lead was not even connected to the cast aluminum shell of the light! Just the cut end of the insulate wire, not stripped, no attempt at termination at all.

The second thing is that the driver pack, which has some kind of sealed metal case, was glued to the shell with what appears to be silicone sealant. Now, I'm not expert in materials science, but I don't think silicone rubber is a very good conductor of heat. After all, my wife has silicone rubber potholders!

I went ahead and replaced the power lead. I crimped a ring terminal on the ground wire and screwed it to an available threaded hole inside the shell. So that part was an easy fix.

Now I'm wondering what to do about the driver pack. I'd like to use something more thermally conductive between it and the shell, to improve heat dissipation and hopefully extend the service life of the light.

I guess I get what I pay for. "Buy once, cry once" and all that. By the time I get done fixing this cheap light, the time invested could be worth more than the price difference between this and a better, more expensive product. Oh well, I'm not placing much value on my time since I'm doing this during personal downtime.

Even if the light did have UL markings, I still would have opened it up for inspection (because I'm the curious sort). And if the ground wasn't connected, I'd probably be making an inquiry with UL. That could be a pretty serious safety defect.

At least it provides bright, even light coverage over a large area with no discernible flicker, which was what I was hoping for.

What good is a PSA without the item/manufacture to go with it? ;)

First thing I check when I'm trying out new Chinese gear is the ground. If they got the grounding correct then most everything else is of good quality too.

Right now, I'm impressed with both my distributer here in the states and his Chinese company. I've taken apart all of their lights and I can say they are built relatively well and have some solid engineering behind them. Not to mention the price :)

Sure you're taking a risk, but doing the research (and trial/error) can help mitigate those risks.

Glad the light still works for your purposes :)
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 04:05:11 PM »

Quote
No indication of safety certification, no UL or other markings.
This could bite you in the ass!  :o
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 04:09:16 PM »

What good is a PSA without the item/manufacture to go with it? ;)

"Cheap light from China" isn't sufficient?  ;)

So far I haven't been able to actually identify a part number or the manufacturer. I'll have to take a closer look at the box tonight. Looking on *that site* there are a number of different products that all look identical (from many different sellers with different part numbers); I wouldn't be surprised all come from the same Chinese factory.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 04:33:22 PM »

"Cheap light from China" isn't sufficient?  ;)

 ::)

Pics might work   ;)

Quote
So far I haven't been able to actually identify a part number or the manufacturer. I'll have to take a closer look at the box tonight. Looking on *that site* there are a number of different products that all look identical (from many different sellers with different part numbers); I wouldn't be surprised all come from the same Chinese factory.

You mean dirt basement right?  :P


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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 08:15:53 AM »

I don't understand why this is a surprise to anyone....  obviously we all get what we pay for.  There is always a value/performance proposition with equipment and on the lowest end of the spectrum there is a good chance that safety takes a hit too. 

When I buy a chauvet light instead of ETC, I know there will be some performance loss in exchange for the price savings.   When I buy blizzard, I again know there is performance loss.  The spectrum get a bit murky below that... but the cheaper it is, the cheaper it is.   

In the traditional relationship, let's say the street price of a light is $500.   Dealer is taking $100 probably, rep is making 5% or maybe 10% of sale price, so manufacturer is getting $350.  Their wholesale price is going to probably be 2 or 3 times their cost.  So it's maybe $150 to build the light. 

Knowing this, I also know that if I buy from a manufacturer direct company, $300 to $350 is going to be the about the equivalent of that $500 light from the dealer.  Not alway, but in general. 

Now let's say the manufacturer is just rebadging crap from china.  That don't have an r and d team and don't have that big overhead and need the big markup, their cost is $150, they sell for $200.  I still know that there is NO way a $50 light direct from China can compete with the $500 light. 

Understanding the manufacturing/rep/dealer relationships can help you make good decisions but it won't let you get a $50 light that performs the same as a $500 light. 


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David Allred

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 08:31:55 AM »



Now, I'm not expert in materials science, but I don't think silicone rubber is a very good conductor of heat. After all, my wife has silicone...."


Right when this got interesting, you had to say "pot holders". :o
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 09:20:15 AM »

Understanding the manufacturing/rep/dealer relationships can help you make good decisions but it won't let you get a $50 light that performs the same as a $500 light. 

No, but you can get a $50 light that performs the same or better than a $100-150 light. Or a $500 that performs the same as a $2500 light, etc. You just have to understand the risks and accept or mitigate them.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 12:22:43 PM »

I don't understand why this is a surprise to anyone....  obviously we all get what we pay for.  There is always a value/performance proposition with equipment and on the lowest end of the spectrum there is a good chance that safety takes a hit too.

The risk was understood when I ordered the light. That's part of the reason I opened it up. So for me, there was no surprise, just a reality check to dash my hopes. And that's the reason I only bought one, not a dozen -- if I choose to order more, it will be with the knowledge that modifications will be required.

The takeaway is this: if you have to modify the product to achieve the safety and performance of something that costs more but requires no modification, you haven't saved anybody any money if your time has value.

Just because something is a good price doesn't mean it's a good deal.

(I'll point out, just in case someone missed it, that this wasn't stage lighting; it was just a yard light for the back of my barn. It will replace a work light that is tacked up with nails & wire and plugged into an extension cord.)
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 12:27:55 PM »

My recent experience with UL was very expensive for the possible value returned (because I was going where nobody had gone before.)

Where UL shines is with these common appliances or fixtures.

Lack of UL marking is not only a comment on the design, but the factory discipline (or not) that assembled the product. Finding both questionable, it seems that fixture should end up in a land fill...

JR
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 03:11:13 PM »

Our experience with "almost direct from China" lighting is this: if you order a sample there's an 80% chance your eventual order will not match the sample, either in some physical way that affects usability, or in the match of the LEDs.

If anyone decides to order some, order 25% more than you need because a re-order is 100% certain to NOT match.  There will be no parts availability, either.  When you finally burn through enough units you can sell the remainder off to local bands or donate them to your favorite community theater group (who will eventually hate you for it).

We consider them expendables.

Where the money goes with even the lower priced brands like Chauvet, AMDJ, or Blizzard is that those folks have an engineer or 2 in China, holding the factory accountable for the quality of what is shipped, to insure there are no unauthorized parts substitutions, and to help with service parts.....

The smile of cheap price fades faster than an LED can with a blown PSU...
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 06:03:02 PM »

Our experience with "almost direct from China" lighting is this...

When you say "almost direct from China", are you talking about brands like Artfox that supposedly have American distribution centers, or the ebay listings that claim to ship from a US warehouse?  I agree with you though that the price difference between the ebay LED Pars and the lower end of ADJ/Chauvet/Blizzard is small enough to justify the added cost of the name brand purchase, especially when reliability is important and that you want the fixtures to stay in inventory for a while.  I'm tempted to try an order of the Sharpy knock-offs, more as an experiment than anything else...
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 10:31:34 AM »

If not UL approved, I wouldn't use these...

JR
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David Allred

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 01:21:39 PM »

If not UL approved, I wouldn't use these...

JR

They may be as "UL Approved"  ::) as any of the other no brand Chinese lights.  With or without a sticker.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 01:42:20 PM »

They may be as "UL Approved"  ::) as any of the other no brand Chinese lights.  With or without a sticker.
The sticker is supposed to be evidence that UL both tested and approved the design, and periodically visits the factory to confirm that the units are built to approved plan.

It is possible to copy a UL approved design and still get it wrong. The tear down recap suggests it may not even be a good copy.

I've had more than a little exposure to human safety factors in product design, and while UL can be a little pedantic, they serve a valid purpose.

Of course do whatever floats your boat, I just said what I would do.

JR
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David Allred

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 07:35:48 AM »

The sticker is supposed to be evidence that UL both tested and approved the design, and periodically visits the factory to confirm that the units are built to approved plan.

It is possible to copy a UL approved design and still get it wrong. The tear down recap suggests it may not even be a good copy.

I've had more than a little exposure to human safety factors in product design, and while UL can be a little pedantic, they serve a valid purpose.

Of course do whatever floats your boat, I just said what I would do.

JR

I was saying that a Chinese cloner plant can easily print their own "UL" stickers.  Like they can print their own "Shure" logos on a fake 58.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 10:12:59 AM »

I was saying that a Chinese cloner plant can easily print their own "UL" stickers.  Like they can print their own "Shure" logos on a fake 58.
It's not that easy by design, but attempts to fake UL approval raises the level of fraud.

JR

PS: One very old trick was to put a UL approved line cord on a non-UL appliance. The UL sticker on the line cord does not mean the entire product is kosher.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Cheap lights from China: buyer beware
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 10:12:59 AM »


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