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Author Topic: Legally/Ethically, when do I need electrician to run MC/E-cords & SACS-1 relays  (Read 8257 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Sorry - wasn't sure how to define "things"


The Atlas SACS-1 Duplex Outlet Box doesn't have a molded E-cord coming out of it already. It has knockouts to wire up your own.

Can I put my own E-cord end on it without an electrician? (all of the ones at our venues have been installed by the sound company)
Can I run MC cable into it?

Basically, what I'm trying to accomplish is I have a couple of stages that need additional relays installed and one repaired. [melted from too much current, just needs new edison socket & wiring; relay seems fine.]

What I found on one stage is they ran extension cords (the kind from ace (16awg, outdoor kind) underneath the stage to the relays and other equipment through a cinder block wall to some outlets. Pretty sure this isn't to code and at the very least needs to be SOOW cable (I think).

I'm not sure, but can I get and run the MC into the relay from the outlet?
I'm not sure, but can I get and run SOOW cable instead into the relay from the outlet UNDER the stage?

Looking for guidance on when to use electrician, when not to. Seems sound/lighting guys are always doing a little electrical and it isn't a big deal.

Also, when to run MC or SOOW?
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Tim McCulloch

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Sorry - wasn't sure how to define "things"


The Atlas SACS-1 Duplex Outlet Box doesn't have a molded E-cord coming out of it already. It has knockouts to wire up your own.

Can I put my own E-cord end on it without an electrician? (all of the ones at our venues have been installed by the sound company)
Can I run MC cable into it?

Probably, and yes.

Quote
Basically, what I'm trying to accomplish is I have a couple of stages that need additional relays installed and one repaired. [melted from too much current, just needs new edison socket & wiring; relay seems fine.]

Don't count on anything being "fine".  If you've got obvious damage what makes you think there is no undiscovered/hidden damage?

Quote
What I found on one stage is they ran extension cords (the kind from ace (16awg, outdoor kind) underneath the stage to the relays and other equipment through a cinder block wall to some outlets. Pretty sure this isn't to code and at the very least needs to be SOOW cable (I think).

This is absolutely Code-violating.  Penetration of walls has specific standards, as does the materials and methods used in wiring.  Flexible cords are not listed for wall penetrations.

Quote
I'm not sure, but can I get and run the MC into the relay from the outlet?
I'm not sure, but can I get and run SOOW cable instead into the relay from the outlet UNDER the stage?

Yes, MC from the box the outlet is in; you can't put an Edison plug on MC...  2nd question - maybe/no.  In that order, local Code adoption may permit flexible cord & plug sets for this use but a strict interpretation of the model NEC does not.

Quote
Looking for guidance on when to use electrician, when not to. Seems sound/lighting guys are always doing a little electrical and it isn't a big deal.

Also, when to run MC or SOOW?

Call an electrician the moment you do not wish to assume liability for your work as an unlicensed electrician.  If you have to ask these questions you are not qualified (and being able to answer them does not make you qualified, either).

SOOW is not listed for installed branch circuit service AND in non-residential occupancies, requires conduit/MC for branch circuits.  Again, if you have to ask you should be calling an electrician.  Obviously the church didn't care in some previous work but they need to understand just how lucky they were when that outlet and wiring melted down.  It wasn't divine intervention, it was blind luck.  The board of trustees should be horrified that they could have lost members of their church family as well as lost buildings.  Being cheap (or ignorant) in not good stewardship.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 01:32:38 PM by Tim McCulloch »
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Nathan Riddle

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Probably, and yes.

Don't count on anything being "fine".  If you've got obvious damage what makes you think there is no undiscovered/hidden damage?

True, 'fine' was a bit vague. The relay cycles power when I tested it in the field. When I take it back to repair the receptacle and wiring I will test the relay with a 20A load tester and verify voltage drop, etc. (make sure the contacts aren't fried giving a large resistance.


Quote
This is absolutely Code-violating.  Penetration of walls has specific standards, as does the materials and methods used in wiring.  Flexible cords are not listed for wall penetrations.

Well I was right about that, but now its going to be somewhat costly to fix it properly... I could run the E-cords around the wall instead of through it.

Quote
Yes, MC from the box the outlet is in; you can't put an Edison plug on MC...  2nd question - maybe/no.  In that order, local Code adoption may permit flexible cord & plug sets for this use but a strict interpretation of the model NEC does not.

That makes sense, our AHJ Fire Martial is buddy buddy with the director of maintenance who happens to also be my dad and retired electrician. So i'm sure we could get away with it even if he noticed. The problem is the wall.

Quote
Call an electrician the moment you do not wish to assume liability for your work as an unlicensed electrician.  If you have to ask these questions you are not qualified (and being able to answer them does not make you qualified, either).

Yes, but there's the rules that you never break and those that you bend. If everything was done exactly proper via qualified people nothing would get done because we'd all be arguing about who is 'qualified'.

Seriously though, do I call an electrician every time I need to plug in a light or speaker? No, but the grey area is a relay box that the 'sound company' provides and installs.

I might not know that the SJ cable isn't the correct wiring; but does the electrician know too?

Quote
SOOW is not listed for installed branch circuit service AND in non-residential occupancies, requires conduit/MC for branch circuits.  Again, if you have to ask you should be calling an electrician.  Obviously the church didn't care in some previous work but they need to understand just how lucky they were when that outlet and wiring melted down.  It wasn't divine intervention, it was blind luck.  The board of trustees should be horrified that they could have lost members of their church family as well as lost buildings.  Being cheap (or ignorant) in not good stewardship.

I agree, and the client wants to get it fixed properly.

I'm just trying to advise the proper method to do so.

I can't and don't know everything there is to know about everything.

Hence coming here for help.

It's far better that I'm atleast trying, because EVERYONE ELSE dropped the ball and the place could have burned down...

It's honestly a little scarry knowing that I know the most, but also the least...
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Stephen Swaffer

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True, 'fine' was a bit vague. The relay cycles power when I tested it in the field. When I take it back to repair the receptacle and wiring I will test the relay with a 20A load tester and verify voltage drop, etc. (make sure the contacts aren't fried giving a large resistance.


Well I was right about that, but now its going to be somewhat costly to fix it properly... I could run the E-cords around the wall instead of through it.

That makes sense, our AHJ Fire Martial is buddy buddy with the director of maintenance who happens to also be my dad and retired electrician. So i'm sure we could get away with it even if he noticed. The problem is the wall.

Yes, but there's the rules that you never break and those that you bend. If everything was done exactly proper via qualified people nothing would get done because we'd all be arguing about who is 'qualified'.

Seriously though, do I call an electrician every time I need to plug in a light or speaker? No, but the grey area is a relay box that the 'sound company' provides and installs.

I might not know that the SJ cable isn't the correct wiring; but does the electrician know too?

I agree, and the client wants to get it fixed properly.

I'm just trying to advise the proper method to do so.

I can't and don't know everything there is to know about everything.

Hence coming here for help.

It's far better that I'm atleast trying, because EVERYONE ELSE dropped the ball and the place could have burned down...

It's honestly a little scarry knowing that I know the most, but also the least...

You missed one of Tim's key points.

To draw a very fine line:

If Steve Swaffer, licensed master electrician, does wiring at my church as a volunteer and something bad happens my homeowners/ personal liability pays.

If Dutch Creek Electrical, llc ( my single member llc) gets paid to do work there my contractor policy with a much higher limit pays.

In my situation, in the first scenario I lose my house and the church doesn't get rebuilt.  Second scenario, the building gets replaced.

I get the whole arguing who is qualified thing at times- but doing work in a facility open to the public vs yours or someone else's home raises the ante significantly.

Its good you are doing some homework- but do you know the rules for installing MC?  How close to the the box must it be supported, protection from damage?

Doing it right the first time is always the least expensive route.

IMO, bending a rule should only be done if you understand the repercussions.
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Steve Swaffer

Rob Spence

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I may not get completely how this "relay box" is installed but if the sound company built it, and it plugs in, then, it is an appliance. If not UL listed (in the USA), then it could void the churches insurance leaving the sound company liable if something goes wrong. I am pretty certain that a liability policy for the sound company would not cover manufactured gear not tested by licensed lab thus leaving the owner of the sound company completely liable.


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Nathan Riddle

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You missed one of Tim's key points.

To draw a very fine line:

If Steve Swaffer, licensed master electrician, does wiring at my church as a volunteer and something bad happens my homeowners/ personal liability pays.

If Dutch Creek Electrical, llc ( my single member llc) gets paid to do work there my contractor policy with a much higher limit pays.

In my situation, in the first scenario I lose my house and the church doesn't get rebuilt.  Second scenario, the building gets replaced.

I get the whole arguing who is qualified thing at times- but doing work in a facility open to the public vs yours or someone else's home raises the ante significantly.

Thanks for the clarification, makes much more sense now. I wasn't trying to be dense  ;)

Okay, my situation nameofcompany (single member llc) with insurance does the work... not me-volunteer.

And I'm not trying to do the electrical, I'm just saying I lay the cable and do my part (put in the relays) [which would include wiring up the MC/SOOW cable into them]. Then an electrician can connect the MC up at the outlet/panel (if needed).

If I can just run SOOW on top of the stage to the relays and not incur any excessive liability...then that's probably what I'll try and do.

Quote
Its good you are doing some homework- but do you know the rules for installing MC?  How close to the the box must it be supported, protection from damage?

No  :-[

Quote
Doing it right the first time is always the least expensive route.

IMO, bending a rule should only be done if you understand the repercussions.

True.

The way I see it though; is no matter what I'm bending rules. The key is what is acceptable? (I'm willing to admit, I don't know)

It's like the ole, 'once you know, you realize how little you know'.

Do I look the other way now that I know what is okay and isn't okay?

My job would only replace one of the cable runs under the stage through the wall. It wouldn't fix the other two.


I may not get completely how this "relay box" is installed but if the sound company built it, and it plugs in, then, it is an appliance. If not UL listed (in the USA), then it could void the churches insurance leaving the sound company liable if something goes wrong. I am pretty certain that a liability policy for the sound company would not cover manufactured gear not tested by licensed lab thus leaving the owner of the sound company completely liable.

Well that just stinks.

AtlasIED built it.

But it has knockouts to put your own power cord (or run conduit/MC) into it and wire it up yourself.

It isn't like the Furman relays where the cord is pre-attached.

SACS-1 Manual

It's what has been previously installed everywhere else in the church.
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Tim McCulloch

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True, 'fine' was a bit vague. The relay cycles power when I tested it in the field. When I take it back to repair the receptacle and wiring I will test the relay with a 20A load tester and verify voltage drop, etc. (make sure the contacts aren't fried giving a large resistance.


Well I was right about that, but now its going to be somewhat costly to fix it properly... I could run the E-cords around the wall instead of through it.

That makes sense, our AHJ Fire Martial is buddy buddy with the director of maintenance who happens to also be my dad and retired electrician. So i'm sure we could get away with it even if he noticed. The problem is the wall.

Yes, but there's the rules that you never break and those that you bend. If everything was done exactly proper via qualified people nothing would get done because we'd all be arguing about who is 'qualified'.

Seriously though, do I call an electrician every time I need to plug in a light or speaker? No, but the grey area is a relay box that the 'sound company' provides and installs.

I might not know that the SJ cable isn't the correct wiring; but does the electrician know too?

I agree, and the client wants to get it fixed properly.

I'm just trying to advise the proper method to do so.

I can't and don't know everything there is to know about everything.

Hence coming here for help.

It's far better that I'm atleast trying, because EVERYONE ELSE dropped the ball and the place could have burned down...

It's honestly a little scarry knowing that I know the most, but also the least...

Nathan, I'm not trying to be a dick (but I can do it without effort, so...) but many electrical questions are like rigging questions: if one has to ask one is likely in a position to engage a "qualified" person with demonstrated expertise, training, certification(s) and recognition within the trade.

Electricians tend to scare me when I hand them 2/0 or 4/0 tails and they give the "deer in the headlights" look in return.  Some of the most personally dangerous electrical things I've been exposed to in entertainment have been at the hands of a licensed electrician who was absolutely unqualified to do our work, but could probably rough-in a new house's wiring in a day.

We depend on electricians to know the local Code and comply with it; most electrician's clients want the absolute cheapest thing that will work whether or not it's remotely safe or code compliant.  Churches tend to the false economy of "spending less is good stewardship" when "not burning down the worship center" would be a more complete view of stewardship.  I understand there is a limit to personal influence, even in one's own church, but in good conscience we must try to do all we can to prevent loss of life, personal injury and property damage.
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Nathan Riddle

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Nathan, I'm not trying to be a dick (but I can do it without effort, so...) but many electrical questions are like rigging questions: if one has to ask one is likely in a position to engage a "qualified" person with demonstrated expertise, training, certification(s) and recognition within the trade.

Tim, sorry I came across as defensive. It wasn't my intention. I know your intention is to help me out. I think I was trying to (wrongly) prove myself.

Anyways, matter at hand.

I agree with the comparison. But it seems that the disconnect is someone is going to do it anyways. What is my best course of action?

I know "it depends".

Let me define: best = safe, cost effective, and managed liability.

Eg.
Replacing all of the E-cords (which run into the relays) is the safest, but costs more money and exposes me to liability...
What do I replace them with SOOW or MC?

It comes down to what is the client willing to pay. But also, I need the info so they can make an informed decision.


Electricians tend to scare me when I hand them 2/0 or 4/0 tails and they give the "deer in the headlights" look in return.  Some of the most personally dangerous electrical things I've been exposed to in entertainment have been at the hands of a licensed electrician who was absolutely unqualified to do our work, but could probably rough-in a new house's wiring in a day.

We depend on electricians to know the local Code and comply with it; most electrician's clients want the absolute cheapest thing that will work whether or not it's remotely safe or code compliant.  Churches tend to the false economy of "spending less is good stewardship" when "not burning down the worship center" would be a more complete view of stewardship.  I understand there is a limit to personal influence, even in one's own church, but in good conscience we must try to do all we can to prevent loss of life, personal injury and property damage.

I think that was what I was trying to get at. No one is perfect even if they hold a 'license'. We're only as good as what we're trained to do even if that 'license' gives us authority over more than

The unique position we are in is that we have to know wayyyy more than a typical guy in an industry (electrical, rigging, lighting, dmx, sound, safety, logistics, business, etc.). At a certain point, yes, you can have a dedicated person who KNOWS each area. But until then sometimes you just end up being the 'expert' in the room.



P.S.
As an aside about the rigging. Just like electrical, I gleaned everything I know about rigging from people saying 'if you have to ask...' buttt HERE's the answer (on the interwebs).
I realize it's a life safety thing and I try not to fly things because of that. But I know when something is unsafe and the proper way to fix it is a 5-10k purchase: "but it's been working fine for 10 years!" or "I've always done it this way." -yeah your Lowes hardware is definitely rigging worthy.. points to: "NOT FOR OVERHEAD LIFTING" on tag.

It's incredible the amount of things that get done via hacked up baloney. I'm really at an impasse of what to do in those situations.
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Stephen Swaffer

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In general, SO is not acceptable for building wiring, so if the box is fastened in place, it would be considered building wiring.  A box with " knock outs" in it is generally not acceptable for portable wiring.

I would see if a local electrician would oversee the project- let him spec materials make connections, etc while you do the dirty grubby work.  Pay him for his time, but letting you or others do the heavy lifting in return for some good PR.  (Notice I did not say donate his time for good PR).

Its a good way for you to learn and have a safe install- though it can be a pain for the electrician so treat him well!

I have it found it effective to ask leadership to consider how they would respond to questions posed by a lawyer or a parent who was asking about priorities while discussing a dead/ severely injured child. No amount of money will fix that-and replying that we hired a pro is huge in that case.
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Nathan Riddle

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In general, SO is not acceptable for building wiring, so if the box is fastened in place, it would be considered building wiring.  A box with " knock outs" in it is generally not acceptable for portable wiring.

I wasn't planning on having it fastened in place. None of the other ones are.

I feel you, thats why I was cautious. I think that's why they are discontinued now... Older gear = different views on customer installation safety.

Quote
I would see if a local electrician would oversee the project- let him spec materials make connections, etc while you do the dirty grubby work.  Pay him for his time, but letting you or others do the heavy lifting in return for some good PR.  (Notice I did not say donate his time for good PR).

Its a good way for you to learn and have a safe install- though it can be a pain for the electrician so treat him well!

I have it found it effective to ask leadership to consider how they would respond to questions posed by a lawyer or a parent who was asking about priorities while discussing a dead/ severely injured child. No amount of money will fix that-and replying that we hired a pro is huge in that case.


Alrighty,

Good suggestion, I was considering that as well.

Could their in-house maintenance team (which regularly does electrical work for them [correctly I might add as they were once an electrical contractor]) do the same as well?

I appreciate the help y'all.
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