ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system  (Read 10212 times)

Jerome Casinger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 272
Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« on: January 21, 2017, 04:57:21 pm »

Bottom line:  The rest of my band is ready to switch to in-ears to gain control of monitors after multiple venues with dead drivers, lack of monitors, etc etc.

We play a lot of shows with 2 or 3 bands on the bill.  A decent amount of the time we are the "headliner" and the stages are small so its full gear swaps (I use that term loosely but for local shows it is what it is). 

I am trying to run through my head if I could use my X32 rack and a splitter snake or something to easily tie into a house system.  I imagine for this to work well and ensure the same mix we would need to always bring our own mics etc?  I can see how we would tie our rig into the house existing snake.  My question is when it comes to multi band gigs though, I guess if they fit within our footprint it would be fine, but one band last night had 8 members and definitely would not fit in our footprint.

Curious thoughts on how or if I can make this work with minimal extra set up on our band (usually we are last on for the night so stage swaps have to be fast), but I also dont want a crazy headache for the FOH guy.  I run FOH probably 40ish times a year, but the only bands that have fed me a split have been the only band playing that night.

Wanted to get thoughts on this.  Venue gear ranges dramatically from analog with tons or outboard, to some digital guys etc etc.  Some are also running the x32 as well, I could let them mix on the IPAD but not everyone is comfortable with that and for a walk in band, I would rather be on the faders and knobs to grab and go faster, just my opinion.

Looking for thoughts from both sides of the fence here, bands doing it, FOH guys that have walk in ear rigs showing up frequently etc.

Thanks and sorry for the long read.
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4961
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2017, 05:10:07 pm »


Looking for thoughts from both sides of the fence here, bands doing it, FOH guys that have walk in ear rigs showing up frequently etc.

Thanks and sorry for the long read.


Not on the fence here.  We staff for a chain of "stage" gastro pubs that book bands at 7 locations all year long.  Without a doubt the best acts are self contained.


Started seeing it a few years ago from a couple of bands out of Chicago, Hot Sauce Committee and the Personnel) then some East Coast were doing it. 


We use x32 in house so if you want I will take a digital patch from you.  Most hand off an analog split.


It maintains a level of consistency you can't get otherwise.
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Jerome Casinger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 272
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 05:13:02 pm »


Not on the fence here.  We staff for a chain of "stage" gastro pubs that book bands at 7 locations all year long.  Without a doubt the best acts are self contained.


Started seeing it a few years ago from a couple of bands out of Chicago, Hot Sauce Committee and the Personnel) then some East Coast were doing it. 


We use x32 in house so if you want I will take a digital patch from you.  Most hand off an analog split.


It maintains a level of consistency you can't get otherwise.

Gotcha...my fence comment is more for opinions from the band side and the FOH side.  You have nights where you may have a few bands and one wants to be self contained?  If so how do you prefer it to be done for a quick set change?
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4961
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 05:15:42 pm »

Gotcha...my fence comment is more for opinions from the band side and the FOH side.  You have nights where you may have a few bands and one wants to be self contained?  If so how do you prefer it to be done for a quick set change?


I don't have that issue at the clubs as they book 1 act a night. 


Self contained is great for multiple act gigs.  We will often use the main acts console for the other acts.  When I advance the gig I will find out what we have to work with and spec an extra 16 or 32 input stage box and soft patch it in then patch back to the headliners rig when we are done.



Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

John Chiara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2017, 05:55:24 pm »


I don't have that issue at the clubs as they book 1 act a night. 


Self contained is great for multiple act gigs.  We will often use the main acts console for the other acts.  When I advance the gig I will find out what we have to work with and spec an extra 16 or 32 input stage box and soft patch it in then patch back to the headliners rig when we are done.

Hardware split and use it all the time. Never an issue, easy patches between sets...cheap.
Logged

Dave Dermont

  • Forum Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 356
  • From The Great Pocono Northeast
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2017, 10:31:08 pm »

Bottom line:  The rest of my band is ready to switch to in-ears to gain control of monitors after multiple venues with dead drivers, lack of monitors, etc etc.

We play a lot of shows with 2 or 3 bands on the bill.  A decent amount of the time we are the "headliner" and the stages are small so its full gear swaps (I use that term loosely but for local shows it is what it is). 

I am trying to run through my head if I could use my X32 rack and a splitter snake or something to easily tie into a house system.  I imagine for this to work well and ensure the same mix we would need to always bring our own mics etc?  I can see how we would tie our rig into the house existing snake.  My question is when it comes to multi band gigs though, I guess if they fit within our footprint it would be fine, but one band last night had 8 members and definitely would not fit in our footprint.

Curious thoughts on how or if I can make this work with minimal extra set up on our band (usually we are last on for the night so stage swaps have to be fast), but I also dont want a crazy headache for the FOH guy.  I run FOH probably 40ish times a year, but the only bands that have fed me a split have been the only band playing that night.

Wanted to get thoughts on this.  Venue gear ranges dramatically from analog with tons or outboard, to some digital guys etc etc.  Some are also running the x32 as well, I could let them mix on the IPAD but not everyone is comfortable with that and for a walk in band, I would rather be on the faders and knobs to grab and go faster, just my opinion.

Looking for thoughts from both sides of the fence here, bands doing it, FOH guys that have walk in ear rigs showing up frequently etc.

Thanks and sorry for the long read.

Being handed a set of tails from a "pass though" splitter snake is pretty common. Many bands that play a lot of festivals do this. Not having to deal with monitor mixes usually makes house guys happy.

The neatest way is to have your X32 and a snake with a rack-mount box in the same rack, with one side of the split plugged into the X32. Label the box inputs to match your input list. Locate the rack like a piece of backline close to the venue snake box.

If you are playing last, and cables are already run to the snake, move what's already run to the venue snake over to your box. Plug the other end of your splitter snake into the venue snake box.

Wired and/or wireless IEM stuff can live in the same rack and be pre-wired to the X32. Wireless mic receivers (if you got 'em) and a WiFi router can live in there too.

Absolutely do this. You'll love it. It'll be great.
Logged
Dave Dermont

Warning: Dates on calendar may be closer than they appear

Jay Barracato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1915
  • Solomons, MD
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 10:37:47 pm »

I do this slot as a house guy these days, and also did it in the festival world with a band I teched for.

What I prefer is a hard split, where you can put your stage box next to mine. Mics that go to the monitors get pulled from my box and replaced by your short tail spilt.

What doesn't work is expecting me to land all the mics in a different place like having a splitter built into your rack which you decide has to go across stage from my stage box.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Actually, in the club a year ago I installed a whirlwind splitter snake, even though copper is not sexy these days, and we usually mix monitors from FOH. Now I land everything in my stage box, if you want to do your own monitors, I just hand you the split.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 10:41:06 pm by Jay Barracato »
Logged
Jay Barracato

Dave Dermont

  • Forum Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 356
  • From The Great Pocono Northeast
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 11:21:17 pm »

I do this slot as a house guy these days, and also did it in the festival world with a band I teched for.

What I prefer is a hard split, where you can put your stage box next to mine. Mics that go to the monitors get pulled from my box and replaced by your short tail spilt.

What doesn't work is expecting me to land all the mics in a different place like having a splitter built into your rack which you decide has to go across stage from my stage box.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Actually, in the club a year ago I installed a whirlwind splitter snake, even though copper is not sexy these days, and we usually mix monitors from FOH. Now I land everything in my stage box, if you want to do your own monitors, I just hand you the split.

The rig I described above would work OK in places that have the stage box somewhere upstage. just put the rack next to the stage box.

In the case of the monitor split described above, just put the rack where the split is dropped.

A drop box in the band rig (instead of a rack mount) would offer more flexibility of placement, but not be quite as neat and clean.

Yeah, if stages are really tight, or their might be issues with other back line gear, go with the drop box instead of the rack mount box.
Logged
Dave Dermont

Warning: Dates on calendar may be closer than they appear

Jerome Casinger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 272
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 03:25:34 pm »

Great input everyone. One question looms in my head.  The mics/di's.  I see it mentioned to swap off the house stuff into our box, then use put the tail into the house box.  Makes sense, does using venue mic's cause for issues with the ear mix that cant be resolved quickly?  Seems like you would have to do a more lengthy sound check potentially?

I only ask because I have run ears for years now, however it has always only been on my rig, with my mics.  If the whole band goes on ears....we start using venue mics to ensure an expedited stage swap etc....any input on this?
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19141
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 04:16:25 pm »

Great input everyone. One question looms in my head.  The mics/di's.  I see it mentioned to swap off the house stuff into our box, then use put the tail into the house box.  Makes sense, does using venue mic's cause for issues with the ear mix that cant be resolved quickly?  Seems like you would have to do a more lengthy sound check potentially?

I only ask because I have run ears for years now, however it has always only been on my rig, with my mics.  If the whole band goes on ears....we start using venue mics to ensure an expedited stage swap etc....any input on this?

No, use you own mics & DIs.  I think every band that brings their own IEM rig needs a complete stage package - mics, cables, stands, sub-snakes, and a long enough split tail to reach the house input box.  That means 50' at minimum and 75' would be better.

Minimize stands with Z-bars or Cab-Grabbers for guitar rigs, clip on mics for drums (with a drum cable loom), etc.  The idea is that as soon as the PA inputs are muted you can disconnect the mic lines and strike the back line gear.  We work with a lot of 'bus and trailer' bands that do exactly this.  They can have the deck cleared of big stuff in 5 minutes, and another 5 min to get cables and the IEM rack off the stage.  Some of them can do the whole thing in 5 minutes, it's amazing to watch.

Consider doing one more thing... keep a couple of spare lines in your splitter tail to house - you'll always need spares AND you can send a L/R mix from your X32 to the house in situations where the house cannot accommodate your needs (not enough inputs, inadequate house mixerperson etc.).
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Jay Barracato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1915
  • Solomons, MD
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2017, 08:19:27 pm »

No, use you own mics & DIs.  I think every band that brings their own IEM rig needs a complete stage package - mics, cables, stands, sub-snakes, and a long enough split tail to reach the house input box.  That means 50' at minimum and 75' would be better.

Minimize stands with Z-bars or Cab-Grabbers for guitar rigs, clip on mics for drums (with a drum cable loom), etc.  The idea is that as soon as the PA inputs are muted you can disconnect the mic lines and strike the back line gear.  We work with a lot of 'bus and trailer' bands that do exactly this.  They can have the deck cleared of big stuff in 5 minutes, and another 5 min to get cables and the IEM rack off the stage.  Some of them can do the whole thing in 5 minutes, it's amazing to watch.

Consider doing one more thing... keep a couple of spare lines in your splitter tail to house - you'll always need spares AND you can send a L/R mix from your X32 to the house in situations where the house cannot accommodate your needs (not enough inputs, inadequate house mixerperson etc.).
This was my strategy when I was with the band.

However, the reality in the club seems to be, while a couple bands have complete setups, many just have primary vocal mics and are looking to use my instrument mics plus a couple for backup vocals.

My suggestion of having their own mic package for consistency often gets blank looks as a response.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Logged
Jay Barracato

Scott Levine

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 03:20:20 pm »

I mixed monitors for Darlene Love last weekend.  She had her scaled down band and only needed 7 mixes.  Only the bass player needed an in-ear mix.  I plugged it into it's own omni on the Yamaha CL5 Reo rack and managed it easily enough.  I just made sure not to blow out any eardrums!
Logged
Regards,

"Not so Mean" Scott Levine
Strike Sound & Lighting

"There is nothing that can't be repaired or improved through the judicious use of gaffe tape."

Steve Pritchard

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 01:14:56 pm »

Great input everyone. One question looms in my head.  The mics/di's.  I see it mentioned to swap off the house stuff into our box, then use put the tail into the house box.  Makes sense, does using venue mic's cause for issues with the ear mix that cant be resolved quickly?  Seems like you would have to do a more lengthy sound check potentially?

I only ask because I have run ears for years now, however it has always only been on my rig, with my mics.  If the whole band goes on ears....we start using venue mics to ensure an expedited stage swap etc....any input on this?

Use your own stuff.. I run a X32 Producer. I chose this as it can be racked easily, but still gives access to physical sliders and buttons should the network connection fail.( like in a X32 Rack)  We have that, and 6 IEM units, and patch bay with split, and wireless net work router all in 1 rack. I bring all my own mics for vocal and also stands usually. I have them all plugged in and ready to go and off to the side of the stage.  When its our turn, I just hand the FOH our tails from our split with input list and they can plug them in where they want.  We move our stands out front, move theirs off to the side, and are ready to go. ( All mic levels and checks to our board were done earlier)  So then FOH just has to check levels.   IF we are the main act, i many times will just let what other bands are playing use our mics.  I just dont mess with anything on our board so when its our turn, its all good.  Of course FOH might need to tweak input gains or what ever. but if they have the ability, usually they can just save a scene or what ever for our show, and just recall it quick.    Drums for me are the biggest issue.  I used to run them thru my board as well, but If using a back line kit ( common kit)  I wont put them thru our board, i will just take a monitor feed from FOH with just drums in it, and put it back into my board as one input.. You dont get individual control of each drum, but you can contol the volume and FOH sets the mix.   Then I started doing that if kits were swapped as well, as that reduces the number of channels that have to be swapped at FOH when doing a switch over Vs if all the drums as well go thru our board first.( 24 channels with drums 14 with out)  ..Mics for drums can just be moved out of the way, swap kits and re-mic then just get 1 monitor mix from FOH back to our board and let the drummer determine the mix so they are happy, and we just turn that up or down in our personal mixes..  Hope that makes sense..   
Logged

Terry Martin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2018, 03:44:36 pm »

We rarely play a multi band event.  But we do carry IEM rack, wireless mic rack, all mics, cables, drop snakes and stands to ensure our mix is as close as possible - venue to venue.  No mic gain changes at sound check, just minor tweaks to the mix. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Martin Shifflett

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
    • Sound Impression
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 08:13:02 pm »

We rarely play a multi band event.  But we do carry IEM rack, wireless mic rack, all mics, cables, drop snakes and stands to ensure our mix is as close as possible - venue to venue.  No mic gain changes at sound check, just minor tweaks to the mix. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We did this same thing for years. It works well, and most house engineers actually liked it. We handed them a transformer-isolated split and they did their thing while we did ours. We always carried our own microphones as well to keep things even more consistent.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Logged

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 284
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2018, 09:26:01 am »

hey

Yeah I think, as people have said by far the easiest way to do it is an all in one set up, though of course it costs a lot more $.

A rack mixer (few choices available) and your IEM system in a rack together. All of the mics you're using get plugged into your rack (whether by drop boxes, or by cable looms, or just XLR straight to the rack) and then get split into the house stagebox. Any instruments that you aren't using for bigger or more complex bands just bypass your rack and go straight into the house.

That way you have all your channels and can mix as needed (can even use mobile phones or tablets so each band member can control his/her own mix) and FOH has their own split of everything so they can mix the show for the audience as needed.

And as said, the house engineers will probably than you that they can concentrate on the FOH mix and know that the IEMs are taken care of  ;D

K
Logged

Jeff Schoonover1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 08:21:20 pm »

On the small scale (clubs, etc.) I have a Behringer XR-18 and splitter with a router in one 6-spc. rack.  Everyone can use their phones or tablets for one of 6 (or 8 if it's a dedicated monitor rig as it most often is) mono or 3-4 stereo monitor sends.  House guys love it - even the ones who haven't seen it much as they suddenly realize they don't have to mess with monitors.
On a larger scale, I just got off the road with a touring band playing 1-3K seats a night.  It used dual Midas M32's, one for monitors and one FOH. A DL-32, 8 Senn IEM's and combiner were in a nicely portable rack with it.  Again, the fact that we were self-contained and on/off stage in just minutes was well-appreciated. It's becoming the standard. 
Logged

Mike Caldwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 987
  • Covington, Ohio
    • Mike Caldwell Audio Productions
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2018, 11:37:44 pm »

Regardless of how you configure your IEM system make sure it is in working condition every time you use it and at least one person with your group know how to trouble shoot a problem in the system.

Things like no dead channels in your split or stage drops that need patched around/made to work by the sound provider on a daily show by show basis.

Andrew Watts

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 36
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 12:33:44 am »

This has been a great thread. What did you end up doing Jerome? The X32 Rack is ideal for this setup.
Logged

Jerome Malsack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1275
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2018, 02:29:12 pm »

With a Rack 32 I have a 1U ups providing the power.  I have two wifi routers so I can swap to the second on a failure.  Wifi has a small USB powered fan to cool for the 90 plus summer days.  two Ipads setup for overheat and battery life.  two battery packs to extend the Ipads battery.  The wifi's are dual band in the 2.4 and 5 gig. 
Logged

Bryce Bloom

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
Re: Best way to mix band in-ear and house system
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 11:40:24 am »

Bottom line:  The rest of my band is ready to switch to in-ears to gain control of monitors after multiple venues with dead drivers, lack of monitors, etc etc.

We play a lot of shows with 2 or 3 bands on the bill.  A decent amount of the time we are the "headliner" and the stages are small so its full gear swaps (I use that term loosely but for local shows it is what it is). 

I am trying to run through my head if I could use my X32 rack and a splitter snake or something to easily tie into a house system.  I imagine for this to work well and ensure the same mix we would need to always bring our own mics etc?  I can see how we would tie our rig into the house existing snake.  My question is when it comes to multi band gigs though, I guess if they fit within our footprint it would be fine, but one band last night had 8 members and definitely would not fit in our footprint.

Curious thoughts on how or if I can make this work with minimal extra set up on our band (usually we are last on for the night so stage swaps have to be fast), but I also dont want a crazy headache for the FOH guy.  I run FOH probably 40ish times a year, but the only bands that have fed me a split have been the only band playing that night.

Wanted to get thoughts on this.  Venue gear ranges dramatically from analog with tons or outboard, to some digital guys etc etc.  Some are also running the x32 as well, I could let them mix on the IPAD but not everyone is comfortable with that and for a walk in band, I would rather be on the faders and knobs to grab and go faster, just my opinion.

Looking for thoughts from both sides of the fence here, bands doing it, FOH guys that have walk in ear rigs showing up frequently etc.

Thanks and sorry for the long read.

Just joined this forum.   We've got the setup you describe.  We just put it together, and while we have some bugs to work out (I will be posting on that separately) I've done a ton of research and this is definitely the way to go.  We have an X32 rack, S16, 4 ART s8 splitters, and 3 12 channel analog snakes.  The snakes are in the rack pre-connected so we can just plop them down on stage and plug in.  That takes care of the inputs without a lot of cables.   Then there are two 16 channel fantails labeled up that we can hand off to the FOH.   

We first had a system like this a few months ago with an XR18 and we used it at a gig which worked flawlessly.  But we needed more channels so we upgraded.  At the time we were using P16's personal mixers, but as you can only mix 16 channels we are ditching those and going with ipads to control our personal mixes.   

To keep things a little lighter in the main rack we have a separate rack to hold our wireless IEM transmitters.  So at the gig we just need to connect up a couple of 4 channel patch cables between the main rack (X32 and S16 outs) to the rack that holds the wireless transmitters. 

I went back and forth a number of times trying to decide if analog splitters or trying to stay all digital (with SD8 or SD16 stage boxes) was the way to go.  But at the end of the day it comes down to how many outputs you have back at the rack - and while it's attractive to go with all digital input boxes around the stage because you just have to connect them with lightweight Cat5 cables, the issue we ran into is you have to have enough physical outputs to send 1:1 to the FOH.   That requires a significant investment i.e. 2 S32s to give you 32 outs from the rack (or you could run snakes from each of your SD8 stage boxes) - but that's messy and requires reconnecting every time.   Defeats the purpose.  Plus if you go with the digital route, the FOH loses control of your Pre's and then if you make changes on your system to gains it affects the FOH.  Finally, you may have to deal with routing issues between your IEM setup and the FOH's behringer board (AES50 assignments). 

So that's a very long winded explanation of why it is just far simpler to go analog with your splits.  No matter where you play, it's going to work and the FOH guy will understand it.   Oh and I wouldn't use a splitter snake.   You want isolated transformer splits - so go with the ART s8 units or something similar. 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.049 seconds with 16 queries.