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[John Rutirasiri]

We are in Japan.

Looks like you're in Hiroshima area?  I have a friend in Utsunomiya, but it's a bit far.

I'm sure there are capable AV install companies in the area...is it a matter of budget that you want to undertake this project yourself and take on the liability?  There are certain building codes you'll have to follow, like safety cables on ceiling speakers.  So it's a bit more involved than just picking out the speakers and popping them in the ceiling. 

Ceiling speakers are usually for speech and background music, not that you couldn't pipe a live band through them.  There just won't be much bass.  And if they're spaced too far apart, you have dead spots.

If it were me, I would do a powered line-column type portable system.  The Martin CDD is a very good suggestion.  K-Array KR402 is excellent, albeit expensive.  RCF EVOX 12 is also good.

Ganbattane!

John R.

[Ivan Beaver]

Here are the basic problems and "solutions".

One way to keep approx the same level in the front and rear is to raise the speakers up.  The level in the back will not change-but the level in the front will be reduced.

HOWEVER-your ceiling prevents that.

Another way to is use speakers with large horns (for the whole cabinet).

But they would be larger, and you would need to get them higher.

Delay speakers will be a problem due to the low ceiling, unless you use a lot of them and properly set them up.

In these types of room there is a limit of performance you can get.

A lot of it depends on how much money is willing to be spent.

With a decently large budget, there might be a solution, but don't expect some different speakers in the same location to perform much different.

Sorry, but sometimes solutions are very limited.

[Scott Schesser]

Thank you. For even coverage, if I mount the CDD12 (for example) sideways I should be fine. Is that correct?

DISPERSION (-6dB): 110˚-60˚ horizontal, 60˚ vertical (user-rotatable)

I forgot to ask, budget?

CDD12 then. You already have a powered mixer otherwise I'd suggest going for the live version (FIR filters, dsp, etc).

Full disclosure, I have not used them before; they are a recommendation of the forum.

JBL SRX series is excellent, I own the 835p's (though they are too big for what you want).
Lots of love for the Yamaha DSR112 as well.

[Scott Schesser]

We are a missions church, so trying not to hire someone. How far apart would you place them? What bass would I lose? Bass from voices, piano and guitar? Should I add a sub if I buy 12's? Where would you place the sub? Thanks for the advice.

Looks like you're in Hiroshima area?  I have a friend in Utsunomiya, but it's a bit far.

I'm sure there are capable AV install companies in the area...is it a matter of budget that you want to undertake this project yourself and take on the liability?  There are certain building codes you'll have to follow, like safety cables on ceiling speakers.  So it's a bit more involved than just picking out the speakers and popping them in the ceiling. 

Ceiling speakers are usually for speech and background music, not that you couldn't pipe a live band through them.  There just won't be much bass.  And if they're spaced too far apart, you have dead spots.

If it were me, I would do a powered line-column type portable system.  The Martin CDD is a very good suggestion.  K-Array KR402 is excellent, albeit expensive.  RCF EVOX 12 is also good.

Ganbattane!

John R.

[Nathan Riddle]

Thank you. For even coverage, if I mount the CDD12 (for example) sideways I should be fine. Is that correct?

DISPERSION (-6dB): 110˚-60˚ horizontal, 60˚ vertical (user-rotatable)

Yes, you can rotate the driver so that the horizontal remains 110 when rotating the entire cabinet on its side.
You'll need the wall mount brackets as well FYI.


Ivan and John are right and you need to consider the building codes, liability risks, and the fact that new speakers might look better and sound better it still won't fix the loud up front issue much (if any).

We are a missions church, so trying not to hire someone. How far apart would you place them? What bass would I lose? Bass from voices, piano and guitar? Should I add a sub if I buy 12's? Where would you place the sub? Thanks for the advice.

I think you can mount them fairly easy yourself. Not much different then mounting a flat screen tv wall mount.

For the coverage though, that will take a bit of thought process. We would need some more info, such as stage dimensions and chair dimensions. You gave us teh plans for the room, so that's a great first step. But correctly positioning them will take more than that.

As far as bass is concerned, I'm willing to bet the 12's will have more than the 15" Peavey mains. That said, for modern worship music. Dual 18's is the least amount of sub I would have in ANY (nearly) size room.

[Scott Schesser]

The band area is 8' from the back wall and 25' wide. The chairs are close to the band area - 12' from the back wall. I can move them back a little if needed.

Yes, you can rotate the driver so that the horizontal remains 110 when rotating the entire cabinet on its side.
You'll need the wall mount brackets as well FYI.


Ivan and John are right and you need to consider the building codes, liability risks, and the fact that new speakers might look better and sound better it still won't fix the loud up front issue much (if any).

I think you can mount them fairly easy yourself. Not much different then mounting a flat screen tv wall mount.

For the coverage though, that will take a bit of thought process. We would need some more info, such as stage dimensions and chair dimensions. You gave us teh plans for the room, so that's a great first step. But correctly positioning them will take more than that.

As far as bass is concerned, I'm willing to bet the 12's will have more than the 15" Peavey mains. That said, for modern worship music. Dual 18's is the least amount of sub I would have in ANY (nearly) size room.

[Nathan Riddle]

The band area is 8' from the back wall and 25' wide. The chairs are close to the band area - 12' from the back wall. I can move them back a little if needed.

Could you make a diagram in Visio, Publisher, Powerpoint, Word, Paint, etc?

That would be easier.

[Ivan Beaver]

Thank you. For even coverage, if I mount the CDD12 (for example) sideways I should be fine. Is that correct?

DISPERSION (-6dB): 110˚-60˚ horizontal, 60˚ vertical (user-rotatable)

Remember that a horn only has a particular pattern if it is large enough to control freq down to a certain freq.

Small horns ONLY have their rated pattern at the top couple of octaves.

And the narrower pattern MUST be larger to have the same control.

If it is smaller, then it will only control freq that are higher-sometimes an octave or more higher than the wider freq.

[John Rutirasiri]

We are a missions church, so trying not to hire someone. How far apart would you place them? What bass would I lose? Bass from voices, piano and guitar? Should I add a sub if I buy 12's? Where would you place the sub? Thanks for the advice.

Ceiling speaker spacing depends on several factors: ceiling height, ambient noise level,  target SPL and seat-to-seat variation , speech intelligibility index requirement, type of program, speaker power handling, coverage pattern/dispersion, etc.  And of course budget (how many can you afford, how many can you drive on a single amp channel without having to add another amp.)  Most ceiling speaker manufacturers have spacing calculators on their websites with parameters already set for specific the make/model speakers.

Here in the States 6.5" and 8" ceiling speakers are most common, and bass will get down to a solid 70Hz.  The height of the back can usually determines how low it will play, but you have to consider mandatory high pass filter for 70V speakers to prevent transformer saturation, so it may be even less bass than the spec says.  In any case, you're not going to get much bass...consider it midrange and up.

For small gigs, I like having subs with 12" 2-way speaker per side, so the 12" can be in its sweet spot reproducing vocals and not have a lot of cone excursion reproducing bass.  You can add standalone subs to ceiling speakers, but it can be a little tricky to integrate/align with the ceiling speakers without a loudspeaker processor/DSP.  (There are in-ceiling subwoofers, which I don't particularly care for -- too much resonance and vibration).

To do ceiling speakers right, you need to have certain knowledge and experience and proper tools to measure room response.  Trying not to hire a professional to save money can actually be short-changing yourself and not getting sound and performance the system is capable of.  Don't read too much into those Crutchfield testimonials. 

John R.

[John Rutirasiri]

FWIW the building I was working in when the March 11, 2011 earthquake struck lost a few ceiling tiles and speaker grills, but not a single ceiling speaker fell down.
I'd be really hesitant installing ceiling speakers in Japan without prior experience or knowing their building codes, which are very strict.

John R.

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