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Author Topic: EV ETX  (Read 26001 times)

Neil Cox

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2017, 05:13:31 AM »

Neil,
It appears you are over driving the input to the speaker causing it to limit and over temp.

1) reduce the channel gain input on stereo channel.
2) remove the maximizer thingy
3) either reduce the mix output or
4) once the speaker limit and over temp is removed, increase the master volume to get the SPL you want.
Hi Jim, thank you so much i have print screened all of everyone's feedback and advice and I will be reporting back later I shall try all you advise and also do a SPL reading 1M 3m thanks so much to everyone on here for all your help and support guys
Fantastic forum


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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2017, 06:44:04 AM »

Hi Neil,

It looks like you're doing working men's clubs. IMO, you simply don't have enough rig for the gig if you want live levels.

Here's what I ran at the last one for a live rock band: 2x 18" active subs (Mackie Thump, provided by the band), 2x 2x10" tops (mine, around 2.5KW each). I wanted to take my subs, but transport was an issue that day.
It was enough, but just. Trying to squeeze that performance out of a pair of 12" tops isn't gonna happen IMO. A 15" top might get closer, but I think you really need subs.

The room was about the same size as the one in your video, but more square, so the audience would be closer to the speakers. I did have someone come and tell me to turn it up, when I was metering around 110dB at mix position. I was also told the sound was "tinny" and had no low end. It was a nice balanced mix, you could hear everything that was going on (sanity checked afterwards, my recorded mix and also some video footage). These guys want it loud, and they want a lot of bass. Your setup will go fairly loud, but won't do the low end they're after.

If you're anywhere near Sheffield, let me know and I'd be happy to offer a second opinion on whether or not your setup is prematurely limiting. I'd also be happy to bring some kit to compare with if you like.

Chris
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Neil Cox

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »

Hi Neil,

It looks like you're doing working men's clubs. IMO, you simply don't have enough rig for the gig if you want live levels.

Here's what I ran at the last one for a live rock band: 2x 18" active subs (Mackie Thump, provided by the band), 2x 2x10" tops (mine, around 2.5KW each). I wanted to take my subs, but transport was an issue that day.
It was enough, but just. Trying to squeeze that performance out of a pair of 12" tops isn't gonna happen IMO. A 15" top might get closer, but I think you really need subs.

The room was about the same size as the one in your video, but more square, so the audience would be closer to the speakers. I did have someone come and tell me to turn it up, when I was metering around 110dB at mix position. I was also told the sound was "tinny" and had no low end. It was a nice balanced mix, you could hear everything that was going on (sanity checked afterwards, my recorded mix and also some video footage). These guys want it loud, and they want a lot of bass. Your setup will go fairly loud, but won't do the low end they're after.

If you're anywhere near Sheffield, let me know and I'd be happy to offer a second opinion on whether or not your setup is prematurely limiting. I'd also be happy to bring some kit to compare with if you like.

Chris
Hi Chris thank you very much for your help and advice.
To be honest with you the clubs in Wales are really struggling with bums on seats so it wouldn't pay for me to get subs, it's just not feasible to me I couldn't afford base bins, my last PA system ZX5s was amazing I could do it all and sound was warm etc.

Thank you so much for your help and kind advice I really appreciate your help.
I'm in Cardiff.


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Robert Lofgren

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2017, 01:11:38 PM »

If you are looking at the rcf then the art712 is a great sounding speaker with lots of low-end and punch. The price is not bad either. Why pay more than you need to...
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Seth Albaum

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2017, 08:00:25 PM »

When I went digital with my mixer and got ETX 15's, subs, (and ZLX's too), I had a bit of a rough time at the beginning also - especially with my ETX 15's and exactly as you described.

But then I (re)learned gain structure. With input gain on the ETX 15 DSP's set so the signal is below clipping, I can crank them to "11" without concern. But initially, I was afraid, as you were, to do that.
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Luke Geis

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 02:15:16 AM »

I was at a gig once where the DJ had these speakers and had the same issue. My opinion is that the DJ was sending way too much level and the speaker was trying to do all it could to keep itself from blowing up. The speaker eventually turned off from overheating, and it makes sense as to why. The speaker actually sounded pretty good considering it was under full protect mode, but you could tell it was trying to save itself.

The master volume is nothing more than an attenuation knob. It may say plus eleven, but that is only to deal with all the given possibilities. Let's break down some known facts about the speaker.

1. The input will clip when a signal of +18dbu is presented to it.

2. The input and output will limit to protect itself given the input and output settings.

3. The amplifier will limit in order to protect from thermal damage to the speakers. It reduces output by -4db as far as I can tell from the manual.

4. It will produce the same potential output regardless of the input and output settings provided it is sent enough signal. 

Your mixer is capable of a +22dbu output level which is 4dbu more than the speakers input can even handle. So you don't even have to clip the mixer in order to clip the input of the speaker. In one of the videos you were pretty close to clipping the mixer. The speaker may show +12dbu, but that may be an RMS level reading? In either case your not showing a peak on the speakers, so the speakers are going into limit due to the processing within them.

My finding has been that the modern DSP in powered speakers is designed to be bullet proof. They will do whatever it takes to sound good and not blow up. My remedy for the JBL SRX model is to run the output at +12db and keep the input setting at 0db. This may be a similar remedy for you as well?

The theory I have is simple. The output of the speaker is the same no matter how you do it. If you turn the output up +11db and the input down -11db, you should have the exact same outcome you have now. You will use the same level from the mixer and get the same output from the speaker. If you turn the master all the way up and keep the input level on the speaker set to 0db, you should in theory need less level from the mixer to acquire the same SPL. I think this will trick the speaker a little. The speaker has several levels of limiting that are input and output based. If the input is well below the threshold, the only part that will be doing the work is the amplifier. This means that the DSP will only do the needed work to keep the speakers and amp under control, not the input side of things. This may eek a  little more out before you have issues.

Another huge thing I found about the JBL SRX line is that the crossover settings greatly effected output vs limiting points. Simply put, the higher I set the crossover, the more output I was able to achieve before limiting in any part of the amp occurred. It may behoove you to run subs, or at the very least a single sub. You may also find that simply setting the speaker for a crossover setting of 80hz. will allow you enough low end to get the job done while giving you a few more db in output before issues arise.

What I do know is that the processing within the speakers takes into account both RMS and Peak levels. The peak levels is what sets the limiters into action, while the RMS levels are simply the  proof in the pudding. If you have highly dynamic uncompressed music, you have higher peaks and lower RMS levels. The way to get a mile more out of any speaker is to decrease the crest factor ( have a higher RMS level ). Using a compressor on your vocals to keep the peaks under wraps may help. Since compression increases the RMS level of the media, it can help you get the vocals on top while having an overall lower level setting. It makes the quiet parts of your singing louder and clamps the louder parts down. Since the peak levels are now under control and the crest factor is lower, you get more perceived SPL with a lower level setting. This means you have to push the speakers less and again can trick the speakers into giving you more.

The BBE Maximizer is NOT HELPING at all......... It is a gimmick. Get rid of it. I used to own and use one ( it's a shame and I regret the expenditure ) and while I did like its effect, it did not help me in any way that experience and knowledge couldn't do the same. It is an effect, nothing more, nothing less. use it in the studio or as a doorstop, not in your PA's signal chain. It is eating potential SPL for sure. I am not 100% certain as to how the processing in the DSP of the speakers work, but if it takes into account any sort of harmonic distortion, it will be set off early by the BBE unit. The BBE unit does its thing by adding harmonic distortion and using band specific phase shifted output modulation. In other words it does everything we don't want it to do.

Try these things and if that doesn't work, then the speakers are not right for you. I think subs with a 100hz. setting on the mains and turning the master all the way up will do the trick for you though.
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I don't understand how you can't hear yourself

Neil Cox

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EV ETX
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 02:32:16 AM »

Hi Luke, very kind of you to send me all that helpful information. I have reported back to say now that everything is fine now I'm not putting to much signal into the speakers. Driving them to clipping is exactly what I was doing so the speakers was just doing their job they are built to do. As long as I'm keeping the signals in the green on my mixer by the correct gain structure they work perfect. I'm very happy with them now it's just the weight. I'm only a solo singer. The venues I tend to sing at now are sadly declining to small lounges rather than the big workingman's halls. They are sadly on the decline. Since setting the gains properly at a hire company I'm now achieving a nice sound. They are great speakers and I'm happy with them. I just fallen in love with the JBL PRX710 they are perfect for nursing homes.
Thank you so much for your help and advice though much appreciated    


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« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 03:33:52 AM by Neil Cox »
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Lyle Williams

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 05:03:34 AM »

I fitted top handles using the fly-point bolts.  I found some kyack side-mount handles that were the right size and black and inconspicuous.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 08:32:42 PM »

I'm starting to smell a troll
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Hanno Meingast

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Re: EV ETX
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 09:52:08 PM »


I fitted top handles using the fly-point bolts.  I found some kyack side-mount handles that were the right size and black and inconspicuous.

Lyle,
Can you point me towards a model # for those handles?  I have some FBT verve 8" without any handles and was thinking about adding a top handle. Thanks


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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: EV ETX
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 09:52:08 PM »


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