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Author Topic: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals  (Read 8774 times)

Aaron Maurer

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Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« on: January 15, 2017, 08:29:56 AM »

Mixed a show Friday night and the cymbals were so overpowering it was insane. The drummer is a solid player and is not a cymbal basher not even close. Mixed them before in the same room with no issues. Drummer purchased new cymbals and I believe Friday was the maiden voyage. They seemed to be a darker cymbal like a Zildjian K but projected like crazy. I gaff taped the cymbals underside between the first and second set. It made ALL the difference in the world to get that wash out of the room/mix. Lucky the drummer and I are pretty good friends and he allowed me to do this as it really brought the volume down and cleaned up the entire mix. Second set was a breeze and sounded great.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2017, 07:17:35 PM »

Another less messy option is Moongel on the tops.  Usually not far from the bell opposite the drummer.  The further out you put it the drier the cymbal will become.  Worked with a guy who did this a fair amount.  Especially when he was playing complex Latin stuff.  It cleaned up things and you could hear what he was doing better.  I'm not a fan of super dead drums or dry cymbals, but he made it work.
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Brian Jojade

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 12:01:34 PM »

If I had a dollar for every time the cymbals were overpowering at a show, I'd be able to retire comfortably.

The first place to look at fixing this is AT THE SOURCE.  If the cymbals are too loud to start with, there isn't much you're going to be able to do to fix it.  Too loud comes from a combination of the type of cymbal and the drummer playing them.  If you have loud cymbals and granimal smashing on them, you're in for a rough night, as the sound is going to bleed everywhere and make a mess.

Once you get that under control, placement and room treatment are the next steps.  Look at where the sound is reflecting off of.  Eg, I've done shows in tents where the drummer is on a riser at the back of the stage.  The angle of the top end of the tent creates a horn that reflects the cymbal sound directly into the vocal mics and on stage.  Re-arranging the tent and stage forward 20 feet makes a HUGE difference, as it removes that reflection.  Secondly, adding sound deadening curtains on the stage can do amazing things.

I picked up some of these:
http://www.onlineeei.com/drapecomponents.cfm#drapecomponents-umbra-drapes

Wow, they are amazing at deadening a room for not a huge investment, and they look nice too!
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Brian Jojade

Bob Faulkner

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 12:36:17 PM »

If I had a dollar for every time the cymbals were overpowering at a show, I'd be able to retire comfortably.
+2
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John Chiara

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 02:22:29 PM »

Mixed a show Friday night and the cymbals were so overpowering it was insane. The drummer is a solid player and is not a cymbal basher not even close. Mixed them before in the same room with no issues. Drummer purchased new cymbals and I believe Friday was the maiden voyage. They seemed to be a darker cymbal like a Zildjian K but projected like crazy. I gaff taped the cymbals underside between the first and second set. It made ALL the difference in the world to get that wash out of the room/mix. Lucky the drummer and I are pretty good friends and he allowed me to do this as it really brought the volume down and cleaned up the entire mix. Second set was a breeze and sounded great.

The first hurdle is to get a drummer to understand that his perspective..behind the drum kit...is the WORST place in the room to tell hiw the drums sound. First, they are too close to hear the whole kit in context. Second, because they are so close to a loud source, their ears 'compress' and give a more in accurate version of what's actually happening.  This, to me is the only explanation for how they can have a snare drum that's five times louder than the rest of the kit and think that that sounds normal.  Third, if they listen to recordings they will find that the cymbals overall are much quieter than they are in a live setting.  Add live vocal microphones within a few feet of the cymbals and this problem gets even worse.  Therefore even more compensation is required. In reality, many shows  I mix or attend, would only be normal if the drummer were using electronic drums,  assuming he was not going to change his playing style and we are attempting to create a relatively balanced mix. Muscle memory and compressed hearing creates a good fight to fight.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 03:21:25 PM »

Please be careful with HF absorption behind a drummer.  It will dramatically change the sound of the drums and often cause the drummer to hit harder.  Especially if it is close right behind them.  There are a few places I've played, and one in particular where the drums are in a carpeted corner (why do they put drummers in corners?  The layout of most kits is pretty much rectangular) and no matter how high I tuned it or how hard I hit it, my snare sounded like there was a blanket over it.  And it made it hard to balance against the group.
The ideal would be something reflective for the lower 3' or so in order to make the drums sound normal.  (Even though most drummers set up on carpets to keep things from moving around, Buddy Rich used to carry sheets of plywood around to get his drums to sound proper to him.)  Then above the ~3' something soft and HF damping to limit the projection out to the audience, primarily the cymbals.
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george welder

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 12:27:24 AM »

The first hurdle is to get a drummer to understand that his perspective..behind the drum kit...is the WORST place in the room to tell hiw the drums sound. First, they are too close to hear the whole kit in context. Second, because they are so close to a loud source, their ears 'compress' and give a more in accurate version of what's actually happening.  This, to me is the only explanation for how they can have a snare drum that's five times louder than the rest of the kit and think that that sounds normal.  Third, if they listen to recordings they will find that the cymbals overall are much quieter than they are in a live setting.  Add live vocal microphones within a few feet of the cymbals and this problem gets even worse.  Therefore even more compensation is required. In reality, many shows  I mix or attend, would only be normal if the drummer were using electronic drums,  assuming he was not going to change his playing style and we are attempting to create a relatively balanced mix. Muscle memory and compressed hearing creates a good fight to fight.
Agreed John. Part of what makes for a "good" drummer/percussionist is the ability to mix the parts of the kit and not just the sum of it.

As a working drummer I have tools that make this task easier. Snares of different sizes and varieties, some more "mellow", some more "aggressive", to cover the different environments I'd be working in. Also different cymbals not only for different styles but for different size stages. I've gone to using smaller and thinner when I'm on a small stage that makes for a tight set up. I look at as part of the gig for a professional musician.

I used to mix the band I am currently playing bass in and it was a nightmare. The lead vocalist sings VERY quietly. His mic technique is atrocious and he complains that the drums and cymbals are way too loud in his ears... uh yeah. If you sing louder than a whisper into the mic, you can turn that mic down in your ears and everyone, especially the person mixing FOH, will be much happier. Full disclosure, the drummer is a "granimal" who is very insecure and when I offered some suggestions to make the overall product better, let's say I was met with extreme resistance. (The mantra for the guitarist and myself is, "it makes the money and pays the bills".)

Whew, apologies for the rant. I feel much better. Now off to "make the money and pay the bills".
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 07:24:01 AM »

And i always thought is was me, at FOH, who was to blame...

But seriously: It seems to be getting worse than ever. 100 pounds Cymbal bags, HiHats as thick as truss base, sticks as heavy as lead pipes... But not knowing how to tune their toms... Thank God for moongel. Another new trend: Everybody is a singer these days. 4 piece band? 4 vocals. 6piece? 6 vocals... Keyboard players don't stack their keyboards anymore. No, they put them all on a different stand, and want a mic with every keyboard...

I mix over a hundred bands a year, and maybe a tenth of them have a decent podium setup and -balance.

This concludes my rant, and tomorrow i will meet the next big talents with a smile ;), trying to grant all their wishes and commands.

Oh i forgot: Some "drummers" seem to aim for the mics... Last week 2 broken mics.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 07:28:35 AM by Geert Friedhof »
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John Chiara

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2017, 07:31:24 PM »

Agreed John. Part of what makes for a "good" drummer/percussionist is the ability to mix the parts of the kit and not just the sum of it.

As a working drummer I have tools that make this task easier. Snares of different sizes and varieties, some more "mellow", some more "aggressive", to cover the different environments I'd be working in. Also different cymbals not only for different styles but for different size stages. I've gone to using smaller and thinner when I'm on a small stage that makes for a tight set up. I look at as part of the gig for a professional musician.

I used to mix the band I am currently playing bass in and it was a nightmare. The lead vocalist sings VERY quietly. His mic technique is atrocious and he complains that the drums and cymbals are way too loud in his ears... uh yeah. If you sing louder than a whisper into the mic, you can turn that mic down in your ears and everyone, especially the person mixing FOH, will be much happier. Full disclosure, the drummer is a "granimal" who is very insecure and when I offered some suggestions to make the overall product better, let's say I was met with extreme resistance. (The mantra for the guitarist and myself is, "it makes the money and pays the bills".)

Whew, apologies for the rant. I feel much better. Now off to "make the money and pay the bills".

All these things can matter...BUT..it it were me, I would get the best sounding drums and cymbals at a controlled volume, and use them all the time. The ONLY thing that matters to the mix...after stage bleed...is how the drums and cymbals sound to the MICROPHONES that are hearing them. With in ear monitors I see no reason for louder or softer instruments. The drums don't ever 'need' to be louder for the Mics. Just had a discussion about drum heads..'I got these heads so the drums 'project!'
Me...'they only need to 'project' as far as the drum mics. And, I would rather have them sound 'good' than 'Loud.'
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 07:12:33 PM »

Every stage is different, and every band creates different competing noises.  One band I play with I need to put different heads on to get a higher proportion of attack than I use typically.  The bass player is loud and the sound is dense.  In less dense situations I'll use warmer heads and sometimes lower tuning.  Even the sound on the stage changes things.  Even played reasonably a fair amount of acoustic sound of drums bleeds around IEMs along with things like the bass or a loud guitar so the balance you hear changes in different environments.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Cymbals Cymbals Cymbals
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 07:12:33 PM »


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