Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nathan Riddle]

I was asked to provide a quote for a church's multi-purpose room.

Room is 72ft long and 42 ft wide with a peaked ceiling and dividing walls that jut down from the ceiling to around 12ft (note the room is NOT divided any more, they took those out.) I'll get a picture up here in a few.

They play videos on a projector on the West wall.
They play videos on a TV in the corner of the SW wall.

They have announcements from the S wall on a short stage.
The room is used for kids playing hillsong young and free type music.
The room is used for adults dinner, small groups, etc.

So both foreground/background music. {I know that's not a spl number, but if I rolled in there with my K12's they'd love it. I'm

They want to walk around and talk on wireless mics.
Play music via Bluetooth from phone
Play the video sound through the system wirelessly (aka body pack)

They want sound throughout the room with no real focal point. Distributed audio system; not stage = source system (even though they have a stage).
All my research has been in aligning systems for a focal point.

I'm thinking now that maybe I should point all 4 speakers toward the center of the room from the corners.

Here's what I have so far:

2x Sennheiser EW 135 G3
1x Sennheiser EW 172 G3-A-US for MP3 playback
1x Radial Engineering BT‑PRO Bluetooth Direct Box
1x Furman sequencer
4x Martin CDD8 (white)
4x Martin CDD8 wall mounts

I'm considering control [Martin/Ashly, or other (I'm open to suggestions)] & amps [I know how the easy stuff watts etc. I'm trying to find most cost effective, amp+dsp or amp&dsp].

A few of my thoughts,

Should I add a CSX212 for extended LF?
Should I change to CDD10/12?

What is typically the cheaper/better option? DSP+Amp(s) or DSP&Amp(s)

Should I use their (Martin's) amps or just go with something similar (Ashly)? [the better question here is; when designing a system do you prefer to pick and choose or stick with same manufacture?]

What are yall's preferences, small mixer (they had one on old, not working system) or DSP with wall controller(s)?

[Ivan Beaver]

If you put the speakers in the corners and "fire them in" it could be a big mush of sound.

Some people like that.

That would be your cheapest approach.

A better approach for overall sound quality would be a downfiring system.  But this is going to cost more-especially if they want any decent level out of it.

A "localized" approach would be a simple left/right around the stage, or a center speaker and some out fills.

It comes down to "how important is the non localized issue" and how much are they willing to pay to have that?

[Mac Kerr]

It comes down to "how important is the non localized issue" and how much are they willing to pay to have that?

Also, what is the motivation for a "non-localized" system? Does someone think there is a need to not localize the sound source?

If it must be non-localized I would think a down firing distributed system is what you are looking for. Traditionally they have fairly low power mediocre sounding speakers, but there is no reason it can't be done with pro quality full range speakers, just calculate the coverage from the speaker coverage angles and the listening height to determine full coverage with minimum overlap. Coverage for standing will require more speakers because of the reduced throw relative to seated listening.

You do not want to put the speakers in the corners of the room firing in for the reasons Ivan stated.

Mac

[lindsay Dean]

pics would be a real help

[Nathan Riddle]

pics would be a real help

Sorry, been prepping for a gig and now at the gig.

Not sure why image didn't work... Trying again.

[Nathan Riddle]

Sorry, been prepping for a gig and now at the gig.

Not sure why image didn't work... Trying again.

My internet is horrible out here, so uploading the image has failed multiple times

Anyways, here's the main areas that we could setup a focal point.

I agree, I think distributed sound everywhere is a bad idea.

I kinda had an idea of using three (or more) speakers to shift the focal point depending on where they set up the activities.

I didn't think the 4 speakers was a good idea, but I figured it would work to put sound 'everywhere' in the room.

Anyways, first show went well it's late I'm ready for a nap...

[Nathan Riddle]

Realized my previous post might not show images on some browsers/mobile. Trying a different way.

[Ivan Beaver]

Realized my previous post might not show images on some browsers/mobile. Trying a different way.

Those are some weird "tops" to the dividing walls.

They are gong to cause a lot of havoc to any sound hitting them.

I suggest you talk to the "people that be" and find out what is MOST important to them.

THEN approach it from that angle.

It is often best to sell them what they want (as long as it can work) rather than trying to push them a different direction.

Often they will just go somewhere else and get what they want

[Nathan Riddle]

They 'want' a working sound system that they can hear whatever is going on anywhere in the room.

They want it to be easy to setup, turn-on, and use. Capable of as many purposes as the room is used for.

I asked them do they want a focus point or 'sound everywhere from no apparent direction'. I realize now this was a wrong question as it led them to think that a distributed system was feasible/wise.

I believe they would accept a better approach if I explained it and the reasoning behind it.

On another note, yes the walls are weird, there are 3 of them equally dividing the room. They don't use the dividers anymore as they are removed, but the ceiling walls remain.

Those 'weird' walls might necessitate a delay to keep things consistent front to back.

[Nathan Riddle]

While I want to start off with a nearly ideal system, they will probably end up scaling back until it's just 2 speakers.

I'm thinking a 3 speaker system like this might be simple enough yet still effective to fulfill all of the design requirements adequately.

Basically, there would be '2' modes one that faces the stage (S) and one that faces the projector/TV (W).



BTW, I still can't seem to upload images to the forum directly; been having to use tinypic

[Ivan Beaver]

While I want to start off with a nearly ideal system, they will probably end up scaling back until it's just 2 speakers.

I'm thinking a 3 speaker system like this might be simple enough yet still effective to fulfill all of the design requirements adequately.

Basically, there would be '2' modes one that faces the stage (S) and one that faces the projector/TV (W).



BTW, I still can't seem to upload images to the forum directly; been having to use tinypic

BUT MAKE SURE in your setup/switching etc that they CANNOT use all 3 speakers at the same time.

SOMEBODY will want to-so be sure to have a switch or program adjust etc that is "either/or" and NOT "and".

[Nathan Riddle]

BUT MAKE SURE in your setup/switching etc that they CANNOT use all 3 speakers at the same time.

SOMEBODY will want to-so be sure to have a switch or program adjust etc that is "either/or" and NOT "and".

Absolutely, that makes sense.

I'm leaning toward a wall controller for 'volume' and presets.

Because of the 'ceiling walls' (what else do you call them?) I'm still slightly iffy that the '3' speakers will be enough for the further back parts of the room and I'm considering delays.

I'd appreciate thoughts on the matter. I could easily see the system escalating to 6 or 8 speakers, but I don't think the added cost or arrivals would help any.

[Ivan Beaver]

Absolutely, that makes sense.

I'm leaning toward a wall controller for 'volume' and presets.

Because of the 'ceiling walls' (what else do you call them?) I'm still slightly iffy that the '3' speakers will be enough for the further back parts of the room and I'm considering delays.

I'd appreciate thoughts on the matter. I could easily see the system escalating to 6 or 8 speakers, but I don't think the added cost or arrivals would help any.

Delays get to be real tricky (and expensive) when you want the sound to come from 2 different locations.

Personally I would start with the basic setup-but make sure the customer understands that it might not work well and some delays may be needed.

But they ALSO need to understand that if they want the sound coming from different locations, this will mean even more delays.

They expectations need to match their wallet.

[Dave Garoutte]

Instead of putting the speakers in the corners,
Put the on the center divider firing down and out.
With an A-B switch you could semi isolate either side of the room.

[Nathan Riddle]

Instead of putting the speakers in the corners,
Put the on the center divider firing down and out.
With an A-B switch you could semi isolate either side of the room.

That's not the goal though.

From either position (stage or wall with projector/tv) there should be coverage for the entire room.

Also, there isn't a center divider. There are two dividers dividing the room into thirds.

[Tim McCulloch]

That's not the goal though.

From either position (stage or wall with projector/tv) there should be coverage for the entire room.

Also, there isn't a center divider. There are two dividers dividing the room into thirds.

I think a distributed system (overhead) is by far your best choice for coverage.  Sometimes the Audio Ancients were right...

[Nathan Riddle]

I think a distributed system (overhead) is by far your best choice for coverage.  Sometimes the Audio Ancients were right...

Hmm, I have already designed and almost finished writing the proposal for the client with the previous 'best' idea.

If I were to continue with this thought process of 'ceiling' speakers. How would I attach the speakers to the ceiling and run cables/wire/etc? You see the pitched roof, there isn't attic space to run wires or a drop ceiling to install ceiling speakers.

The only other way I could see would be to put smaller ~5" speakers evenly spaced along the 'wall ceiling dividers' for each section of the room. I think I would still suggest having 2x 12" or 10" mains for the 'stage' area as they have some sort of youth service/event in there.

After adding the adding the additional 6-10 5" speakers @ ~200-400ea the cost would get driven up substantially from an already costly project.

That all said, do you think the benefits are justified?

[lindsay Dean]

why not pendant speakers ?

[Nathan Riddle]

why not pendant speakers ?

Wouldn't the labor involved running conduit along the ceiling to electrical boxes to drop the speakers from cost an absurd amount?

Not to mention the materials, extra speakers, painting, etc.

Also, the pendant speakers would make the room look a whole lot worse than the clean ceilings with recessed lighting.

I'm not trying disregard advice. I'm just trying to ferret out the 'best' (I know that word isn't very descriptive) solution for the client.

Best = a balance between cost, performance, aesthetics, ease of install, & desires.

[Nathan Riddle]

I sent the proposal in for the 2x focal point mode system.

We shall see what the client thinks.

I did stress that additional delays could be needed among other considerations.


I'm pretty proud of it as it is one of my first proposals.

I'm not asking anyone, but i'm a curious feller so if other curious types are out there and want to see, or anyone who is in my posistion (new, not a veteran, but still adequately skilled) seeking more knowledge, I'd be happy to send it via PM.

[Nathan Riddle]

Just wanted to follow up with this.

First, THANKS EVERYONE for helping me out.

Here's a link to pics in case anyone is interested https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1557352137618501.1073741834.435215923165467&type=1&l=dd14223664

The 3 speaker A/B switching was what we went with. The Martin CDD series speakers were exactly the cure for that room. Even without treatment, the room sounds fairly good!

[Scott Holtzman]

Just wanted to follow up with this.

First, THANKS EVERYONE for helping me out.

Here's a link to pics in case anyone is interested https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1557352137618501.1073741834.435215923165467&type=1&l=dd14223664

The 3 speaker A/B switching was what we went with. The Martin CDD series speakers were exactly the cure for that room. Even without treatment, the room sounds fairly good!

Looks great

[Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com]

Just wanted to follow up with this.

First, THANKS EVERYONE for helping me out.

Here's a link to pics in case anyone is interested https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1557352137618501.1073741834.435215923165467&type=1&l=dd14223664

The 3 speaker A/B switching was what we went with. The Martin CDD series speakers were exactly the cure for that room. Even without treatment, the room sounds fairly good!

Nice job Nathan!  Martin seems to have a winner on their hands with the CDD series.

Jeff

[ProSoundWeb Community]