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Author Topic: This or that  (Read 3164 times)

Jeremy McNichol

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This or that
« on: January 10, 2017, 11:32:03 pm »

Hey guys. Looking for anyone with real experiences on running a sub setup with the X1 type design from Rog Mogale. Any significant advantages/disadvantages over a standard front loaded reflex system?
Assuming the same 18" driver used.
Sound quality is #1 priority.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: This or that
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 01:30:26 am »


Sound quality is #1 priority.


What exactly does that mean?


Quality is such an ambiguous word. 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: This or that
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 02:21:56 am »

Hey guys. Looking for anyone with real experiences on running a sub setup with the X1 type design from Rog Mogale. Any significant advantages/disadvantages over a standard front loaded reflex system?
Assuming the same 18" driver used.
Sound quality is #1 priority.

Buy Rog's subs.  I don't know if they're better or worse than anything else (and likely better than anything home-brew) but they're part of a loudspeaker SYSTEM.  Why divide a system into "known quantity" and "crap shoot"?
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: This or that
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 07:16:29 am »

Its a pretty standard 6th order bandpass. Compared to a standard reflex of the same size, you gain a little output at the top end, and lose a little at the bottom. The distortion performance of the X1 ought to be better than a reflex because you've got an acoustic filter there.
That said, acoustically filtering at the top end is a double-edged blade. It'll sound cleaner at high levels, but you won't have much notice when your drivers are struggling, until they fail.

I haven't run the numbers, so I don't know if the air velocity in the ports will be a problem or not. If the port velocity is marginal, you'll get compression at the top and bottom of the passband. Standard reflex would only get compression at the bottom end.

One last thing - I'd experiment with mounting the drivers with the magnet in the small chamber if possible. That'll give you air flow directly across the magnet, and might buy you a bit more thermal power handling.

Chris
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: This or that
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 07:37:16 am »


What exactly does that mean?


Quality is such an ambiguous word.
EXACTLY.

Does quality mean "accurate reproduction"?

Or "louder"? Many associate quality with loudness.  But louder does not always mean the same sound.

Or "have a specific sound that I like, that may not be accurate"?

People often speak about sound quality, but they often don't actually mean that.

To me-sound quality means something that accurately reproduces what is coming into it.

It may not be the most "fun".

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Steve M Smith

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Re: This or that
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 08:16:20 am »

Quality has the full range from abysmal to excellent.  It means nothing on its own.


Steve.
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David Morison

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Re: This or that
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 08:49:31 am »

Buy Rog's subs.  I don't know if they're better or worse than anything else (and likely better than anything home-brew)

I doubt anyone considering homebrew like the X1 would have the budget for proper Void kit, to be fair.

Assuming the same 18" driver used.

6th Order Bandpass boxes often perform best with different drivers than Vented boxes, so why would you want to deliberately skew the comparison with that criteria?

You'll probably find more people with direct experience of the box on the speakerplans forums, if you haven't already checked that out.

Chris G's reply upthread pretty much sums up the main points to be aware of in considering a bandpass box.

One thing I'd add is that because you have the extra lowpass filter at the top end of the box's response, this may complicate crossing over into the rest of your system - so how good are your measurement chops?

FWIW,
David.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: This or that
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 02:27:48 pm »

Use comes into play here.  I have Cubo Subs which are a quasi band pass design as well (Looked at the X1 also).  Originally I thought that the 60Hz hump would give me a thump similar to 728s.  Depending on the music being played that can be okay, or it can get in the way.  On several outdoor things lately I've been taming that out and therefore losing out on some of the efficiency gain.  Starting to think about Keystones or something a bit more neutral.
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Jeremy McNichol

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Re: This or that
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2017, 12:29:46 am »

Thanks for the response(s) guys.
ASSuming I were to use the driver mostly recommended on speakerplans, I would want to be aware of any shortcomings in the X1 design, eg port noise. I have always used reflex boxes and am curious if the X1 has that much of a different"sound" than a reflex, eg (scoops, horns etc). I have built 4th order boxes in the past and am aware of the masking effect that can lead to driver failure.
I don't belong to the audiophool camp so embellishments of how it sounds are not of much interest, thats why I asked here and not speakerplans.
Given the proper LMS settings they should both perform well if used within safe limits..? Correct?
I definitely would not run 2 different types of boxes in the same bandpass at a show.
No I cannot afford Void kit..right now.
I want accurate reproduction,  yes I'm aware that some people think that distortion adds to a bass systems loudness/quality.
Just wanted an objective view if it would be a step up, or sideways. I mean BP6 boxes are slightly more efficient than reflex's?
I really don't want something that sounds like it's farting out dead cats.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 12:42:24 am by Jeremy McNichol »
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John Halliburton

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Re: This or that
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 08:33:41 am »

Thanks for the response(s) guys.
ASSuming I were to use the driver mostly recommended on speakerplans, I would want to be aware of any shortcomings in the X1 design, eg port noise. I have always used reflex boxes and am curious if the X1 has that much of a different"sound" than a reflex, eg (scoops, horns etc). I have built 4th order boxes in the past and am aware of the masking effect that can lead to driver failure.
I don't belong to the audiophool camp so embellishments of how it sounds are not of much interest, thats why I asked here and not speakerplans.
Given the proper LMS settings they should both perform well if used within safe limits..? Correct?
I definitely would not run 2 different types of boxes in the same bandpass at a show.
No I cannot afford Void kit..right now.
I want accurate reproduction,  yes I'm aware that some people think that distortion adds to a bass systems loudness/quality.
Just wanted an objective view if it would be a step up, or sideways. I mean BP6 boxes are slightly more efficient than reflex's?
I really don't want something that sounds like it's farting out dead cats.

Here's an old rule of thumb.

All things being as equal as possible in the design, a sealed sub will sound better than a vented sub, which will sound better than a sixth order sub.

The best sounding sub is a well designed horn, with the one caveat being that delay thru the sub is greater and needs to be dealt with when tuning the whole system.

There are always tradeoffs.  Rog is a talented designer, I'd make sure to follow his plans and driver specs closely to see results that I would hope have been verified by him and others who have already built this model.

Best regards,

John
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