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Author Topic: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.  (Read 2356 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2016, 11:34:27 am »

  But as was pointed out in a thread regarding finding lifting eys, if I do the proper research and I wind up with a 32:1- or even 10:1 safety factor, how much real risk is there?  Yes, that means reading the instruction manual and following manufacturer's instructions.
But having a good safety ratio only part of the whole "system safe" equation.

HOW the parts are attached is often a bigger issue.

I am not aware of any manufacturer that shows or tells how to attach to building structure.

That is a whole different level of liability.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Eric Frantz

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2016, 06:07:41 pm »

For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.

Nice find Robert.  Never came across those before.  Those might be in the running!  I'd feel better about hanging those vs. other speakers we've been discussing up till now.
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2016, 04:06:39 pm »

For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.

In 2 whole pages of replies this is the first one actually recommending gear designed for installation, not M.I, band-dj gear!
There is no place for that type of equipment in a commercial environment and most of the time you're paying for features you won't need like bass extension, wide coverage, pole mounts and easy-carry handles - and not getting what you really need, such as voice-range clarity, controlled, defined coverage and rated rigging points.
Definitely look at the One Systems stuff, but also don't forget the Community R Series and W Series: http://www.communitypro.com/products/rseries
 (or the Samsung ;) equivalents: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Installed-sound/#.WGLTJzuMCEI)

And you are much better off with the amplifiers separate from the speakers and preferably up and away from the ice surface.  Much easier to run single pair low-voltage type wiring to all the speakers vs having to hire an electrician to install outlets near every one -and then still having to run twisted pair line-level everywhere
(you certainly were going to do that anyways instead of extension cords running through areas with people wearing skates?)
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Craig Hauber
Mondak Sound Design
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2016, 04:59:32 pm »

FWIW, I heard some Mackie Thump 15 tops recently. They're probably fine for most pop music, but there is a serious dip in the 800Hz-2kHz range going on. I put one of my tops up next to it, and the difference was obvious. Playing Guns 'n' Roses, the Mackies made the guitars sit way way back (it sounded like a vox+drums+bass mix). Mine (DIY'd 2x10" + horn) had them right there where they should be. I was running the whole thing mono, just pushing up alternate faders.

With the 1" exit compression driver and fairly low-end 15" woofer, there's a serious gap in the midrange, IMO - the 1" driver won't get low enough at high levels to cross over lower down, and there aren't many 15" drivers that can run nicely past 1kHz.

That's not to say the Thump-15s are bad boxes. As I said, most pop music (which, lets face it, is often vox, bass, and drums) would likely sound fine. They make quite a lot of noise, and are very lightweight. I can see their uses. I can also see that something solid from JBL/Yamaha etc would probably out-do them quite comfortably.

Chris

Then I will say it.  The Mackie Thumps should be called "Thuds" for the sound they'll make when they land in the rubbish bin.  One of the worst (even for the money) speakers I've used.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 05:55:35 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2016, 05:54:58 pm »


{big 'ol snip}

Will the overall sound be as awesome as having pros do it, definitely not.  But will it be a hell if a lot better than what they have, most definitely yes.  I guess that's all they're after at this point in time.

Being cheap and being thrifty is the difference between short-term and long-term.  In many installations the cost of getting the speakers and speaker wiring where they need to go exceeds the cost of the speakers.  Because of that you're often better off installing a better speaker system as replacing it later will likely involve a complete re-do with all the attendant expenses.  Incremental growth is not incrementally expensive...  That said, any of the suggested speakers will be a significant improvement over the Thumps they've been using.  I'm not familiar with One Systems so I'll leave others to comment.

Liability.  Yeah, sure, right.  Everyone says they're good to accept it - until something bad happens and the finger pointing begins.  The Board *really* needs to talk to their insurance company about this, as some things may be covered and other things, not.  And Eric, are there no lawyers in town?  If I were a board member (or advisor) I'd want to know what my potential liability could be and if I were covered by the Board or venue's insurance.

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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2016, 06:45:57 pm »

Being cheap and being thrifty is the difference between short-term and long-term.  In many installations the cost of getting the speakers and speaker wiring where they need to go exceeds the cost of the speakers.
And therefore it is VERY IMPORTANT to do a PROPER DESIGN for the particular space.

SURE-one could "just stick some cheap speakers somewhere and they will make noise".

But there WILL be costs associated with this.

So later-when they figure the "cheap" system is not doing its job, they will most likely NOT ONLY need to purchase new loudspeakers/amps etc, but ALSO need new cable paths and wiring and new mounting points etc.

So when you look at the TOTAL costs, (especially if the system needs to be replaced), it is much less expensive to do it right the first time.

There is a BIG difference between simply sticking in some speakers and hoping they will make some kind of noise that will make the audience happy-and doing a proper DESIGN for the space.

Sure, you might get lucky and most people are simply not used to a decent quality sound system, so if it makes noise they will be "happy" :(

But when you have a properly designed system that provides good clarity to the audience, it is REAL hard to go back to simply "making noise"-no matter how loud it is.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2016, 05:42:05 pm »

There is an article (sorry, no link) that is called "Why churches buy three sound systems", or something very close to that. Your space is not an HOW, but I think it applies to your situation.
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Mac Kerr

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Here's the link...
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2016, 05:57:16 pm »

There is an article (sorry, no link) that is called "Why churches buy three sound systems", or something very close to that. Your space is not an HOW, but I think it applies to your situation.

Here's the link:  Jim Brown Paper
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Charlie Tappa

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2017, 11:21:51 pm »




Liability.  Yeah, sure, right.  Everyone says they're good to accept it - until something bad happens and the finger pointing begins.  The Board *really* needs to talk to their insurance company about this, as some things may be covered and other things, not.  And Eric, are there no lawyers in town?  If I were a board member (or advisor) I'd want to know what my potential liability could be and if I were covered by the Board or venue's insurance.

Beside accepting  the civil and criminal liability (yeah right)  you should ask which one of the "board members' is going to be the one to admit to little Johnny Smiths mother that he or she authorized  the flying of the speaker that fell and killed him. and that the speaker was suspended  by an unqualified entity in order to save a few bucks.   Hanging heavy objects over peoples heads is serious business,  stuff happens and people get hurt or die when it's done wrong.   As has been said many times before,  everyone has 2 jobs,  the one that pays their bills and being the "sound guy".   
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2017, 12:31:02 pm »

Beside accepting  the civil and criminal liability (yeah right)  you should ask which one of the "board members' is going to be the one to admit to little Johnny Smiths mother that he or she authorized  the flying of the speaker that fell and killed him. and that the speaker was suspended  by an unqualified entity in order to save a few bucks.   Hanging heavy objects over peoples heads is serious business,  stuff happens and people get hurt or die when it's done wrong.   As has been said many times before,  everyone has 2 jobs,  the one that pays their bills and being the "sound guy".
EXACTLY!

And when a lawyer finds out about them being advised not to do it, and that "they" were willing to accept ALL the liability-OH BOY will they have a field day with "little Johnnys" parents.

You KNEW-and you did it ANYWAY????

Well THAT is gonna cost you------------------
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
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