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Author Topic: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.  (Read 3616 times)

Eric Frantz

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 12:46:40 am »

Eric,

I aplaud you for looking for help.

I also advise you to look into having a production company help you out, perhaps Scotts.

If you really want to DIY this, then I would suggest the DXR/DSR or JBL SRX7/8 series. Plenty of talk/love for them here.

Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford!  There was a hockey board meeting tonight and we told them a range of $2000-$4000 is what they could expect.  They cringed at those numbers, although its substantially less than a bid a few years back.  Pretty conservative group of people!  Scott are you familiar with Tri-State sound in La Crosse?  I believe the owner used to work for JBL/Harmen.  I stopped in to bounce ideas off of them but they made it seem like we shouldn't even attempt to do it on our own and that they should come look at it.  I didn't appreciate their smug attitude!  They were of no help unfortunately, although they showed me a cool video where they demo a Danley Jericho!  Maybe for the local football field so I can here the game from my home 2 miles away! :)

Those speakers you suggest do look nice.  What are some reasons they get the love?  Over sound/clarity?  Build/components?  Warrenty? Etc.....
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 03:38:50 am »

Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford! 

Sorry I should have been really clear.  My production company is in Cleveland OH.

My other vocation has an office in Neenah and I happen to be in WI this week.  If they were close by was going to offer to stop by.

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 10:39:21 am »

Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford!  There was a hockey board meeting tonight and we told them a range of $2000-$4000 is what they could expect.  They cringed at those numbers, although its substantially less than a bid a few years back.  Pretty conservative group of people!  Scott are you familiar with Tri-State sound in La Crosse?  I believe the owner used to work for JBL/Harmen.  I stopped in to bounce ideas off of them but they made it seem like we shouldn't even attempt to do it on our own and that they should come look at it.  I didn't appreciate their smug attitude!  They were of no help unfortunately, although they showed me a cool video where they demo a Danley Jericho!  Maybe for the local football field so I can here the game from my home 2 miles away! :)

Those speakers you suggest do look nice.  What are some reasons they get the love?  Over sound/clarity?  Build/components?  Warrenty? Etc.....

While the board might cringe at those numbers they are still very low to have a professional installation done. Yes, I realize that it is a larger commitment from the board, but the quality received will be leaps and bounds better.

I think that Tri-State Sound has your interests in mind, they, along with most of us here are running a business, yes, they need to make a profit. But we also genuienly want our customers to have the best possible in their price/market range and we consider a variety of considerations that you might (probably*) not be taking into account.

Furthermore, I agree with their ascertation that most people, organizations, etc. don't have the expertise to SAFELY fly speakers and/or competently install them. Not that a DIY solution isn't possible or even that there are some out there that could pull it off easily or with some work to within 80% of what a paid install might bring. But there are considerations with having a sound company do it such as insurance, proper flying hardware, correct system setup, aiming, speaker selection (which is a whole topic), modeling, acoustic treatment, etc.

With all that said,

I recomended the Yamaha/JBL's because in your price range and with you wanting to do it yourself and without dimensions and drawings to properly design/suggest a SYSTEM of components I can really only suggest a few products that are within your price range that I feel perform above what you have already sought out.

There are 10-50 threads floating around here from the past few years on the K12, DXR/DSR, 812,835, etc. Mi-level point and shoot boxes. They are all generally in the same vein and purity, but some are a bit better than others.

Here is the most recent: Pole Mount Thread

I haven't heard the Yamaha stuff, but from thread's like Debbie's and others I know they are performing better/well compared to the QSC K12 which I do have, thus they get a recommendation from me.

I have the JBL 835p which I consider to be an extremely well rounded, excellent speaker for its price. I know of no other that can perform as well for 1300 street price, though if you look you can find them for less.

My suggestion is the 812p as Debbie and others have used them and I would trust them to perform well for your situation in a point and shoot configuration with little actual system design or forethought.

Could you get better hiring a company? Probably. Would it be worth the extra $$? That's up to you and I'd wager you don't think it is worth it.

My thoughts.
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Eric Frantz

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 11:40:42 pm »

Sorry I should have been really clear.  My production company is in Cleveland OH.

My other vocation has an office in Neenah and I happen to be in WI this week.  If they were close by was going to offer to stop by.

I'm about 2.5 hours wrest of Neenah. 
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 10:28:13 am »

FWIW, I heard some Mackie Thump 15 tops recently. They're probably fine for most pop music, but there is a serious dip in the 800Hz-2kHz range going on. I put one of my tops up next to it, and the difference was obvious. Playing Guns 'n' Roses, the Mackies made the guitars sit way way back (it sounded like a vox+drums+bass mix). Mine (DIY'd 2x10" + horn) had them right there where they should be. I was running the whole thing mono, just pushing up alternate faders.

With the 1" exit compression driver and fairly low-end 15" woofer, there's a serious gap in the midrange, IMO - the 1" driver won't get low enough at high levels to cross over lower down, and there aren't many 15" drivers that can run nicely past 1kHz.

That's not to say the Thump-15s are bad boxes. As I said, most pop music (which, lets face it, is often vox, bass, and drums) would likely sound fine. They make quite a lot of noise, and are very lightweight. I can see their uses. I can also see that something solid from JBL/Yamaha etc would probably out-do them quite comfortably.

Chris
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Eric Frantz

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 04:04:25 pm »

While the board might cringe at those numbers they are still very low to have a professional installation done. Yes, I realize that it is a larger commitment from the board, but the quality received will be leaps and bounds better.

I think that Tri-State Sound has your interests in mind, they, along with most of us here are running a business, yes, they need to make a profit. But we also genuienly want our customers to have the best possible in their price/market range and we consider a variety of considerations that you might (probably*) not be taking into account.

Furthermore, I agree with their ascertation that most people, organizations, etc. don't have the expertise to SAFELY fly speakers and/or competently install them. Not that a DIY solution isn't possible or even that there are some out there that could pull it off easily or with some work to within 80% of what a paid install might bring. But there are considerations with having a sound company do it such as insurance, proper flying hardware, correct system setup, aiming, speaker selection (which is a whole topic), modeling, acoustic treatment, etc.

With all that said,

I recomended the Yamaha/JBL's because in your price range and with you wanting to do it yourself and without dimensions and drawings to properly design/suggest a SYSTEM of components I can really only suggest a few products that are within your price range that I feel perform above what you have already sought out.

There are 10-50 threads floating around here from the past few years on the K12, DXR/DSR, 812,835, etc. Mi-level point and shoot boxes. They are all generally in the same vein and purity, but some are a bit better than others.

Here is the most recent: Pole Mount Thread

I haven't heard the Yamaha stuff, but from thread's like Debbie's and others I know they are performing better/well compared to the QSC K12 which I do have, thus they get a recommendation from me.

I have the JBL 835p which I consider to be an extremely well rounded, excellent speaker for its price. I know of no other that can perform as well for 1300 street price, though if you look you can find them for less.

My suggestion is the 812p as Debbie and others have used them and I would trust them to perform well for your situation in a point and shoot configuration with little actual system design or forethought.

Could you get better hiring a company? Probably. Would it be worth the extra $$? That's up to you and I'd wager you don't think it is worth it.

My thoughts.

Nathan I can see where the extra money to have a professional install a sound system is worth it.  I know the hockey program does too, but they have to try real hard on a regular basis to stretch the money out.  If it wasn't for a new building addition & new compressors for making ice, they probably would spring for the pros!  As for installation, the current system hasn't fallen yet in 10 years.  They just made the mistake in using the old crap that came over from the barn they used to play in.  I pointed out the issue of who's liable if they fall & hurt someone.  They said that's not a problem & that they are prepared to take on the liability.

I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

Will the overall sound be as awesome as having pros do it, definitely not.  But will it be a hell if a lot better than what they have, most definitely yes.  I guess that's all they're after at this point in time.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 01:35:39 pm »

I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

My vote for the SRX :)

Have fun, good luck! [be safe]
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 02:54:54 pm »

Quote
  I pointed out the issue of who's liable if they fall & hurt someone.  They said that's not a problem & that they are prepared to take on the liability.



You live long enough you hear everything.   Not sure if you care if these people like you or not but I would have shared my opinion of their ignorance, turned and walked out the door.


You can't "take on" negligence with prior knowledge.  Prior knowledge is a big concept in tort law.  Once you are made aware of the risk and don't mitigate it you move into the realm of criminal negligence.  It's called a "guilty mind" latin mens rea.  (sidenote I really enjoy the law, it's fascinating).

To give a personal anecdote I don't do production where I worship.  I notice the changes, I sat through Easter with the pastors mic screaming feedback.  Couple of times my wife reminded me why we were there.   I still don't sit anywhere near the speakers either although they are not flown over the audience pointing down as they were one Sunday when I walked in, that was their solution to feedback I guess they flew a couple of EV MI speakers about halfway down the hall.  Did the wood screw eyelet and True Value harware chain tossed over the bar joist method.


 [/size][size=78%]  [/size]



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Robert Healey

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 06:30:56 pm »

I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 10:54:32 am »


You live long enough you hear everything.   Not sure if you care if these people like you or not but I would have shared my opinion of their ignorance, turned and walked out the door.


You can't "take on" negligence with prior knowledge.  Prior knowledge is a big concept in tort law.  Once you are made aware of the risk and don't mitigate it you move into the realm of criminal negligence.  It's called a "guilty mind" latin mens rea.  (sidenote I really enjoy the law, it's fascinating).



Does mitigation require hiring a profesional, or simply doing due diligence?

I understand  the whole liability thing-makes me cautious about what I do for hire especially in public spaces.  But as was pointed out in a thread regarding finding lifting eys, if I do the proper research and I wind up with a 32:1- or even 10:1 safety factor, how much real risk is there?  Yes, that means reading the instruction manual and following manufacturer's instructions.
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