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Author Topic: Club Install Suggestions  (Read 3586 times)

Steve Garris

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Club Install Suggestions
« on: October 23, 2016, 03:14:38 PM »

I'm working with another sound tech and a club owner trying to suggest a good sound system for a new club she has just acquired. Looking for PA (mains) suggestions. It's a big, ambient room with a lot of hard surfaces. The stage is back in a corner, but faces straight out. It a tall stage with scaffolding below, PA tops will be flown and subs to be ground stacked. It's about 350 capacity, don't have room dimensions at this time. The PA will face the bar - I'll try to put a sketch together. The stage is surrounded by a large, heavy curtain.

I've run shows there before, with my SRX800 series system. It sounded good, but it's loud. The new owner doesn't like "too loud" so she's been talking about adding some sound insulation (unknown?). Every time I'm in there with my stuff, I notice a good deal of comb filtering in the low frequencies. I typically do a left-right ground stack so I know this is unavoidable with this setup.

The main sound guy (Sean), who will work the room as well as myself, also works for a big, local sound company. He has a lot of experience working with high quality pro gear (L-Acoustics, Midas, etc). What we are not sure about is the actual budget, which I hope to clarify soon. The new owner wants to bring in semi-national acts, so a rider friendly venue is what they're looking for. Sean is recommending a couple of different systems, including an SRX trap system and an L-Acoustics Kiva LA system , 4 per side. I've hear mini LA systems at just about every casino around here, and they all sound terrible to me, but this could be operator error. I'm hoping Sean comes in to this discussion as well. We both value opinions from the pro's on this forum.

I'll be in this club later this week, and I'll take some photo's and draw up the plan with dimensions. I'm open to suggestions and advise. My first thought was a Danely system with the tops flown - (2) SM80's over (4) TH118's. It just seems like this system get's rave reviews on this forum, but there's the rider issue.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 05:07:55 PM »

In a small room, the room modes (dimensions of the room) will be the dominating factor over the low freq.

If you do room treatments, there are some "cheap tricks" that will extend the absorption down lower at a very low cost-depending on the type of treatments used.

BE SURE to make SURE they are fireproof!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would anybody think a "line array" would be the best solution for a 350 seat room?

As with any system design, THE FIRST thing is actual drawings with dimensions to see if a suggested system will actual cover the room as intended.

What sort of riders are you going to be running into in a 350 seat room.  Will those artists actually walk because they didn't get a particular system?  I doubt it.
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Ivan Beaver
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Aaron Maurer

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 06:22:59 PM »

I run a room that holds 350 exclusively for the club. Lots of hard surfaces and things bounce around for sure. I run a single 18" sub right and left with a 15" w/a 2" horn. The entire system is 5000w and I have plenty left. I double the subs on the "semi-national" acts that I feel is overkill. I do crank the speaker up to about 10' And the ceiling is 12'. Sounds like your ceiling is a bit higher?  That said you are already concerned with sound levels I would aim for quality using less boxes. We always have the riders adjusted as some of them are so rediculous "4 double 18" subs per side" crazy talk in a 90' X 90' room. As Ivan stated no one ever walked because it didn't fit their rider. I always tell whomever it is doing the bookings that the club is in house take it or leave it and the venue supports that. The main tool in the rider that is pretty much a must is the console everything else is up for negotiation.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 06:53:57 PM »

I run a room that holds 350 exclusively for the club. Lots of hard surfaces and things bounce around for sure. I run a single 18" sub right and left with a 15" w/a 2" horn. The entire system is 5000w and I have plenty left. I double the subs on the "semi-national" acts that I feel is overkill. I do crank the speaker up to about 10' And the ceiling is 12'. Sounds like your ceiling is a bit higher?  That said you are already concerned with sound levels I would aim for quality using less boxes. We always have the riders adjusted as some of them are so rediculous "4 double 18" subs per side" crazy talk in a 90' X 90' room. As Ivan stated no one ever walked because it didn't fit their rider. I always tell whomever it is doing the bookings that the club is in house take it or leave it and the venue supports that. The main tool in the rider that is pretty much a must is the console everything else is up for negotiation.
As usual-it depends.

I would have thought that a 90x90 room would have a good bit higher capacity than 350.  But a lot of that has to do with the area of the exits available.

A single 18" sub in a room that size would be "generally" undersized by quite a bit-DEPENDING on the style of music and levels expected.

Just saying "rock" (for example), can mean very different sized systems

A system for a "local rock band" might make an "OK" drum monitor for bands like AC/DC or Metallica.

So expectations are very different.
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Ivan Beaver
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Steve Garris

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2016, 02:00:03 AM »

Udate:

I ran sound there for 3 bands last Saturday. While I was there I measured the room. See the attached drawing. I forgot to measure the ceiling height, but I can say that it's very high - 20 feet or more, with exposed rafters and ductwork. The stage is about 24" to 30" tall, hollow below.

I set my SRX system up same as before, with one stack angled in to the dance floor. This works very well for coverage, but due to some comb filtering, the area labeled "Booths" lacks low end.

For the next show I'm thinking about placing both subs on the left side (SR) and keeping the main split left & right. I do this at another club, and like the more even sub coverage.

The capacity is lower than I thought. I agree that a single box left & right is the proper choice for this room (as opposed to a line array). My SRX system sounded great, but I'm looking for more in the bottom end, and better coverage. At the minimum this room needs 2 double 18's.

They have a system there, JRX with a weird mix of JBL sub's, underpowered amps, and unknown passive monitors. Every band that plays there says it is terrible. Every time I work there I bring in my SRX system with Yamaha DSR monitors, and the bands absolutely love it. This club will be a regular venue for me, so I want it to be great.

Unfortunately, I don't have a budget at this time. At the low end they are looking at a JBL SRX828/815p per side, or similar passive system with good power. Not sure if they'll go for a Danely system, but I would like to make a convincing argument for something of very high audio quality. The tops will be flown, and the sub's will be ground stacked. The board will likely be an M32.

Here's a quick video of the 2nd act, a Def Leppard tribute band that is very good. This is there first song, from a saved sound check earlier. My board is a DL1608: https://www.facebook.com/tim.sullivan.58152/videos/10154588759444757/

Here's the plan view of the club, with my set-up as used last Saturday:

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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2016, 03:15:28 AM »

Udate:

I ran sound there for 3 bands last Saturday. While I was there I measured the room. See the attached drawing. I forgot to measure the ceiling height, but I can say that it's very high - 20 feet or more, with exposed rafters and ductwork. The stage is about 24" to 30" tall, hollow below.

I set my SRX system up same as before, with one stack angled in to the dance floor. This works very well for coverage, but due to some comb filtering, the area labeled "Booths" lacks low end.

For the next show I'm thinking about placing both subs on the left side (SR) and keeping the main split left & right. I do this at another club, and like the more even sub coverage.

The capacity is lower than I thought. I agree that a single box left & right is the proper choice for this room (as opposed to a line array). My SRX system sounded great, but I'm looking for more in the bottom end, and better coverage. At the minimum this room needs 2 double 18's.

They have a system there, JRX with a weird mix of JBL sub's, underpowered amps, and unknown passive monitors. Every band that plays there says it is terrible. Every time I work there I bring in my SRX system with Yamaha DSR monitors, and the bands absolutely love it. This club will be a regular venue for me, so I want it to be great.

Unfortunately, I don't have a budget at this time. At the low end they are looking at a JBL SRX828/815p per side, or similar passive system with good power. Not sure if they'll go for a Danely system, but I would like to make a convincing argument for something of very high audio quality. The tops will be flown, and the sub's will be ground stacked. The board will likely be an M32.

Here's a quick video of the 2nd act, a Def Leppard tribute band that is very good. This is there first song, from a saved sound check earlier. My board is a DL1608: https://www.facebook.com/tim.sullivan.58152/videos/10154588759444757/

Here's the plan view of the club, with my set-up as used last Saturday:



My "home" venue is about 20% louder.  We have way too many hard surfaces.  Room sounds good full, very tough when lightly loaded.

We have STX835's flown on each side of the stage and a pair of stx828's under the stage.  QSC amps, x32 FoH duty and PRX 412's for monitor duty. 

Please change the permissions on your Facebook video so I can take a look.

I just picked up an LG V20, it has a great camera (dual actually like the Iphone 7) and am going to shoot some video tomorrow night.  We have local favorite blues band playing and am hoping for a good turn out.


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Steve Garris

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2016, 12:42:07 PM »

My "home" venue is about 20% louder.  We have way too many hard surfaces.  Room sounds good full, very tough when lightly loaded.

We have STX835's flown on each side of the stage and a pair of stx828's under the stage.  QSC amps, x32 FoH duty and PRX 412's for monitor duty. 

Please change the permissions on your Facebook video so I can take a look.

I just picked up an LG V20, it has a great camera (dual actually like the Iphone 7) and am going to shoot some video tomorrow night.  We have local favorite blues band playing and am hoping for a good turn out.

Oh man, the room is LOUD. When we sound checked, the place was almost empty, and there are hard surfaces everywhere. The entire front wall at the entrance is glass.

That video was posted by a friend, so I can't change it. You can see it on my home page which I believe is open to everyone:
https://www.facebook.com/steven.l.garris

We had at least 200 in the room, so it sounded pretty good.
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Ned Ward

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2016, 01:49:36 PM »

From that layout, seems like it would get awful loud at the bar, which would be a bad thing. Optimizing layout to focus the sound to key areas could help dramatically, and perhaps even delay speakers for the pool area so that you're not trying to reach them with the mains.

Gear selection is probably one of the last things after looking at the goals of the owner and how to accomplish them.
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Steve Garris

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 06:03:05 PM »

From that layout, seems like it would get awful loud at the bar, which would be a bad thing. Optimizing layout to focus the sound to key areas could help dramatically, and perhaps even delay speakers for the pool area so that you're not trying to reach them with the mains.

Gear selection is probably one of the last things after looking at the goals of the owner and how to accomplish them.

Even the JRX cab't that the club has in place? I refuse to work there unless I'm bring my system in, or they replace what's there.

I agree that we need to steer the sound away from the bar, and I'm proposing a corner stack facing out across the dance floor at a 45 deg angle.
The new owner is looking into some soundproofing - not sure what. I'm going to meet with her soon.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 08:08:02 PM »

You need to find out the owners expectations of "sound proofing".
Are they looking to tame the wild reflections in the room, decrease the sound level outside of the club or make the sound stop at a magic line on floor before it gets to the bar.


ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Club Install Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 08:08:02 PM »


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