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Author Topic: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?  (Read 15682 times)

Kevin Maxwell

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Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« on: October 19, 2016, 01:10:08 PM »

Are there any network experts that can help me with this?

I am trying to figure out if I can do what I want with a network switch. I am using a Midas M32 with a computer program to control scene management called Palladium. It can use OSC (Open Sound Control) or Midi to control the mixer and take data from the mixer. Due to the limitations of the Midi implementation in the M32 I have switched over to using OSC. This works over Ethernet. I hook up the M32 and the computer with an Ethernet cable directly connected between the 2. I set the Network setting on the M32 to a static IP address. In Palladium there are the OSC port settings. There are ports from I – P and the fields to enter the data are the Name, IP Address, Port, Ping and Period. So I usually name it M32 Mixer, the IP address that is entered exactly matches the M32s IP address, the Port is 10023, the Ping is /xremote, and the period is 9. And this all works just fine with 2 way communication. This communication isn’t TCP/IP it is UDP and because of that I need a solid connection between the devices. If a packet is lost it is lost.

I have also done wireless control of the mixer with no problem using a WAP. The next step I want to take is to be able to use both Palladium and the wireless control app together. I am trying to figure out if it will work to use a wireless network router/switch. So can I do hardwired but thru the switch part (?) of the wireless router/switch and wireless however that would all work together.

The next step would be, can I control 2 mixers with this routing with Palladium. Palladium can control up to 3 mixers using Midi and I have done 2 in the past using 2 USB to Midi devices on the computer. With the number of OSC ports available in Palladium I would think I should be able to control up to 3 mixers with OSC.

It is the networking part of this that I didn’t know about. I assume that I need to configure the network in some way so the M32 and Palladium are talking directly to each other. And that is where I thought the switch part comes in. At the moment I have a Linksys WRT54GS v.2 wireless router to play with to see if this will work. I don’t have the M32 at my disposal at the moment. But I can go to it to try and see if I can get it to all work together.

Any help would be appreciated. Please let me know if you need more information.
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2016, 02:49:03 PM »

Are there any network experts that can help me with this?

I have also done wireless control of the mixer with no problem using a WAP. The next step I want to take is to be able to use both Palladium and the wireless control app together. I am trying to figure out if it will work to use a wireless network router/switch. So can I do hardwired but thru the switch part (?) of the wireless router/switch and wireless however that would all work together.

Provided the hosts talk to each other over a direct ethernet connection, they should be able to via a wireless router - provided both are connected to the LAN side.  You'll want to make sure that LAN side of the router uses the same IP address range.

Dave
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 10:27:04 PM »

What I am trying to figure out is how exactly to set up the Linksys WRT54GS. There are so many different settings and I don’t know what to do with them. I seem to have it working now but I am not sure if that is because of my settings or in spite of my settings.

The author of Palladium has indicated that “The messages between Palladium and the XM32 are sent via UDP and not TCP/IP. Thus if a message gets lost along the way we have no way to recover it. This is a function of OSC, and neither Behringer or I can do anything about it. Thus the network connection between Palladium and the XM32 needs to be built in such a way that messages NEVER get delayed or lost.”

So far I have seen at least one time when it seemed like the console didn’t get the OSC command that was sent to it.

So I am assuming that I need to use the SWITCH capabilities if this is to work and I probably need to setup static IP addresses. That is how I have it set between the computer and the console now when they are hooked up directly to each other and it works perfectly. I also have a static ARP table entry in the computer setup so it doesn’t try to refresh the table mid show. I see that there is a gaming section in the Linksys WRT54GS that seems to have some options that look sort of like what I might need. Is that where I need to set this up? There is also an advanced routing tab under the setup tab that has a place to setup static routing. I am lost as to how to set this up properly.

Thank you for any help that you can be.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 02:28:44 AM »

What I am trying to figure out is how exactly to set up the Linksys WRT54GS. There are so many different settings and I don’t know what to do with them. I seem to have it working now but I am not sure if that is because of my settings or in spite of my settings.

The author of Palladium has indicated that “The messages between Palladium and the XM32 are sent via UDP and not TCP/IP. Thus if a message gets lost along the way we have no way to recover it. This is a function of OSC, and neither Behringer or I can do anything about it. Thus the network connection between Palladium and the XM32 needs to be built in such a way that messages NEVER get delayed or lost.”

So far I have seen at least one time when it seemed like the console didn’t get the OSC command that was sent to it.

So I am assuming that I need to use the SWITCH capabilities if this is to work and I probably need to setup static IP addresses. That is how I have it set between the computer and the console now when they are hooked up directly to each other and it works perfectly. I also have a static ARP table entry in the computer setup so it doesn’t try to refresh the table mid show. I see that there is a gaming section in the Linksys WRT54GS that seems to have some options that look sort of like what I might need. Is that where I need to set this up? There is also an advanced routing tab under the setup tab that has a place to setup static routing. I am lost as to how to set this up properly.

Thank you for any help that you can be.


You are way over thinking this.  The static ARP entry is a bad idea.

Do you have the factory code or DD-WRT running on the device?

In either case, UDP is lightweight and low latency,  it is not a design issue.

The biggest issue is this device is only 2.4Ghz.  Spectrum is crowded.  It is general consensus that the 5Ghz radios are a much better choice for the production environment and changing RF conditions.

Best practice is also to hide the SSID so as not to invite autonomous registrations from guest devices.

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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 08:35:07 AM »

Quote
I am trying to figure out if it will work to use a wireless network router/switch. So can I do hardwired but thru the switch part (?) of the wireless router/switch and wireless however that would all work together.
Probably yes, try it and see

Quote
The next step would be, can I control 2 mixers with this routing with Palladium. Palladium can control up to 3 mixers using Midi and I have done 2 in the past using 2 USB to Midi devices on the computer. With the number of OSC ports available in Palladium I would think I should be able to control up to 3 mixers with OSC.
Think this would depend on the software but I don't think there is anything stopping you beyond that

Quote
It is the networking part of this that I didn’t know about. I assume that I need to configure the network in some way so the M32 and Palladium are talking directly to each other. And that is where I thought the switch part comes in. At the moment I have a Linksys WRT54GS v.2 wireless router to play with to see if this will work. I don’t have the M32 at my disposal at the moment. But I can go to it to try and see if I can get it to all work together.

Any help would be appreciated. Please let me know if you need more information.

You just need a basic network for this, setup DHCP or leave everything static. What you want is:

PC ----------  Router  ----- Mixer 1
Wireless app-|           |---- Mixer 2
                               |---- Mixer 3

Each would need their own IP address on the network if you are not using DHCP or you simply need to set each mixer to use a fixed ip address in the DHCP settings so you know what each one has, otherwise just use static ip for everything and turn off DHCP entirely. Everything must also be on the same subnet, just use 10.0.0.xxx or 192.168.1.xxx and you should be fine but pick one and stick to it.

It is up to your software if you can control more than one console from it, otherwise just open multiple instances of the program and do it that way.

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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 11:49:46 AM »

You are way over thinking this.  The static ARP entry is a bad idea.

Do you have the factory code or DD-WRT running on the device?

In either case, UDP is lightweight and low latency,  it is not a design issue.

The biggest issue is this device is only 2.4Ghz.  Spectrum is crowded.  It is general consensus that the 5Ghz radios are a much better choice for the production environment and changing RF conditions.

Best practice is also to hide the SSID so as not to invite autonomous registrations from guest devices.

Why is a static IP table a bad idea? Besides the fact that what worked to set one up on this show computer last time I can’t get to work this time. HP computer running windows 8.1.

I assume the router is running the factory code. This was a hand me down so I am using it to play with and have reset it to factory settings.

This is what I have been told by the developer of Palladium. Who BTW is in Australia so there is a bit of a time lag when I communicate (email) to him. I am usually asleep when he is up.
“Regarding a static ARP table entry, when Palladium (or any other app) wants to send data to the X32 via OSC, it does so via the X32’s IP address. However computer networks send data via MAC addresses, and so deep inside any network device (including Windows) is what is known as the ARP table, which translates IP addresses into MAC addresses. This table is maintained automatically by the network device, but on most devices the table is periodically “cleaned” and entries which the device thinks are no longer needed get deleted. Now, if Palladium were then to try and send a bunch of messages to the X32, some of them could get discarded as Windows only buffers one message whilst it is re-building the X32’s ARP table entry.”

As I said I have noticed so far one loss of data being transferred to the mixer. I haven’t yet been able to replicate that loss. As you may be able to tell I am testing things as I write this. I am able to replicate what I thought was a loss but was actually a user error. When the JUMP button (button in Palladium that when you scroll down the cue list enables you to jump to the cue) was partially obscured due to me having Palladium too low on the computer screen with the bottom (?) task bar in the way. I thought I was hitting the JUMP button to jump to another screen but I was actually hitting the task bar.

As far as the router being only 2.4Ghz I at the moment am in the testing phase of this and actually most of this is for another Palladium user that will most likely use his 21” tablet sitting right next to the mixer and the router, I just discover that he just happens to have the same router. I will mention the WiFi issue to him. I have a WAP (with no additional ports) that when I want to use Mixing Station Pro while setting up for a concert that I use. It does 5Ghz and I lock it up completely even to the point of it only connects to devices whos Mac address is in the WAP. I don’t run a show on a wireless device it is only for some setup things.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 01:18:38 PM »

Why is a static IP table a bad idea? Besides the fact that what worked to set one up on this show computer last time I can’t get to work this time. HP computer running windows 8.1.

I assume the router is running the factory code. This was a hand me down so I am using it to play with and have reset it to factory settings.

This is what I have been told by the developer of Palladium. Who BTW is in Australia so there is a bit of a time lag when I communicate (email) to him. I am usually asleep when he is up.
“Regarding a static ARP table entry, when Palladium (or any other app) wants to send data to the X32 via OSC, it does so via the X32’s IP address. However computer networks send data via MAC addresses, and so deep inside any network device (including Windows) is what is known as the ARP table, which translates IP addresses into MAC addresses. This table is maintained automatically by the network device, but on most devices the table is periodically “cleaned” and entries which the device thinks are no longer needed get deleted. Now, if Palladium were then to try and send a bunch of messages to the X32, some of them could get discarded as Windows only buffers one message whilst it is re-building the X32’s ARP table entry.”

As I said I have noticed so far one loss of data being transferred to the mixer. I haven’t yet been able to replicate that loss. As you may be able to tell I am testing things as I write this. I am able to replicate what I thought was a loss but was actually a user error. When the JUMP button (button in Palladium that when you scroll down the cue list enables you to jump to the cue) was partially obscured due to me having Palladium too low on the computer screen with the bottom (?) task bar in the way. I thought I was hitting the JUMP button to jump to another screen but I was actually hitting the task bar.

As far as the router being only 2.4Ghz I at the moment am in the testing phase of this and actually most of this is for another Palladium user that will most likely use his 21” tablet sitting right next to the mixer and the router, I just discover that he just happens to have the same router. I will mention the WiFi issue to him. I have a WAP (with no additional ports) that when I want to use Mixing Station Pro while setting up for a concert that I use. It does 5Ghz and I lock it up completely even to the point of it only connects to devices whos Mac address is in the WAP. I don’t run a show on a wireless device it is only for some setup things.

Why is a static IP table a bad idea? Besides the fact that what worked to set one up on this show computer last time I can’t get to work this time. HP computer running windows 8.1.

I assume the router is running the factory code. This was a hand me down so I am using it to play with and have reset it to factory settings.

This is what I have been told by the developer of Palladium. Who BTW is in Australia so there is a bit of a time lag when I communicate (email) to him. I am usually asleep when he is up.
“Regarding a static ARP table entry, when Palladium (or any other app) wants to send data to the X32 via OSC, it does so via the X32’s IP address. However computer networks send data via MAC addresses, and so deep inside any network device (including Windows) is what is known as the ARP table, which translates IP addresses into MAC addresses. This table is maintained automatically by the network device, but on most devices the table is periodically “cleaned” and entries which the device thinks are no longer needed get deleted. Now, if Palladium were then to try and send a bunch of messages to the X32, some of them could get discarded as Windows only buffers one message whilst it is re-building the X32’s ARP table entry.”

As I said I have noticed so far one loss of data being transferred to the mixer. I haven’t yet been able to replicate that loss. As you may be able to tell I am testing things as I write this. I am able to replicate what I thought was a loss but was actually a user error. When the JUMP button (button in Palladium that when you scroll down the cue list enables you to jump to the cue) was partially obscured due to me having Palladium too low on the computer screen with the bottom (?) task bar in the way. I thought I was hitting the JUMP button to jump to another screen but I was actually hitting the task bar.

As far as the router being only 2.4Ghz I at the moment am in the testing phase of this and actually most of this is for another Palladium user that will most likely use his 21” tablet sitting right next to the mixer and the router, I just discover that he just happens to have the same router. I will mention the WiFi issue to him. I have a WAP (with no additional ports) that when I want to use Mixing Station Pro while setting up for a concert that I use. It does 5Ghz and I lock it up completely even to the point of it only connects to devices whos Mac address is in the WAP. I don’t run a show on a wireless device it is only for some setup things.


I assume you mean a static ARP entry, you typed IP.

Repeating the same statement is not going to change my opinion of it. 

I have never had to populate an ARP table manually in my entire network career. 

The infinitely small amount of bandwidth savings, The chance of an active ARP entry aging out during a show (they are not leased like DHCP) is so slim compared to the administrative overhead and potential troubleshooting problems it can cause down the road.

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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 01:45:31 PM »

I assume you mean a static ARP entry, you typed IP.

Repeating the same statement is not going to change my opinion of it. 

I have never had to populate an ARP table manually in my entire network career. 

The infinitely small amount of bandwidth savings, The chance of an active ARP entry aging out during a show (they are not leased like DHCP) is so slim compared to the administrative overhead and potential troubleshooting problems it can cause down the road.

Thank you for your reply.

Sorry I miss typed that.

I don’t know what you are talking about regarding repeating the same statement. I don’t think I posted the same thing twice, I posted 2 different quotes one more detailed then the other from the developer. I am not sure in your reply why you pasted/quoted it twice.

I understand your never having to do this but I am not sure why the developer was so adamant about this, maybe because it is UDP and when doing a musical you REALLY don’t want to lose a cue or part of a cue. 
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2016, 02:10:53 AM »

Thank you for your reply.

Sorry I miss typed that.

I don’t know what you are talking about regarding repeating the same statement. I don’t think I posted the same thing twice, I posted 2 different quotes one more detailed then the other from the developer. I am not sure in your reply why you pasted/quoted it twice.

I understand your never having to do this but I am not sure why the developer was so adamant about this, maybe because it is UDP and when doing a musical you REALLY don’t want to lose a cue or part of a cue.

I think what Scott is saying is that there are probably a 100  other things that can go wrong that are more likely to occur than the arp cache getting cleared at the very second you are pressing a button.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 03:42:05 AM »

I think what Scott is saying is that there are probably a 100  other things that can go wrong that are more likely to occur than the arp cache getting cleared at the very second you are pressing a button.

Jean-Pierre is exactly right,  on an active connection an ARP entry is not going to get flushed.  It just doesn't happen.

UDP is the protocol used for most real time streaming including video and Voice over IP.  I promise you the President of Melon bank would notice if a syllable was cut off the conference phone in the boardroom.   I can tell you that their VoIP Vlan is devoid of any static  ARP entries.

I  am not trying to be an arrogant douche, I have been implementing packet voice systems for 25 years (or more).  There are many things you can do to improve jitter and latency. 

Static ARP entries have far more potential to cause problems than they do the potential to solve them. 

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Re: Are there any network experts that can help me with this?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 03:42:05 AM »


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