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Author Topic: Business Minded Questions  (Read 85586 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #220 on: May 09, 2017, 12:05:20 PM »

I'm going to save everyone the time and energy.
If you want to make money in this business, buy staging, drape, uplights and video. Audio is fun, it's my love, but it doesn't seem to be where the profit is...

buy staging, drape, uplights and video.

3 out of 4 isn't bad?  I haven't made the staging plunge yet.  Eric is spot on.  I have only had my Rose drape for about 30 days and I am already thinking of another 100 panels. 


Agreed, staging will be an undertaking. For now I'm renting from another local company (the iffy one I've mentioned before, that people dislike) for $50 per 4x8 stage deck.

The draping, I'm still not sure about the ROI, but the proms I have request 300+ft of it and I can charge a fair bit every year (to rent from another local company . I'd get draping if I had more clients that needed/wanted it. The one issue is transporting it, my trailer is already full of AV gear, I can't really add draping... The other is proms/weddings need/want white, and bands/other need/want black, so it's double the investment. Plus I'd want to get the heavy draping for better sound quality (if black), sheer white.

Got plenty of lighting/uplights, might get some Mac101 like fixtures in the future, but not needed right now. What I need/want is some easy/quick to setup DJ type lights that are sound activated so I don't have to drag out the dmx/wired system.

BTW - some great advice.  Get one of those plastic shipping wrap spools on a handle and bundle your uprights and crossmembers in groups of 4 and load them on top of everything else.  I wish someone had told me that 30 days ago.  All these years I never paid attention to how the pipe and base was transported.  I wish I had paid more attention.  Shout out to Keith Steele over at ProShow for that awesome tip.  They are a great partner and a JBL shop, one of the best recone specialists in the midewest.

The company I've been renting from has tubs that the draping goes into and the drape stays on the crossmember. Then the bases go into a hand truck and the uprights get wrapped just like you said.

All of that goes into the trailer they leave at the venue and has some nice internal framing for placing everything. Very efficient setup/teardown.

I might talk to the company I rent from about having a better rate (crossrental instead of full amount), and setup a tax waive with them (so I pay the state tax instead of both of us, or me to them and client is tax exempt...). I can put some pressure by mentioning that I might buy my own draping, etc.


EXACTLY.
I sent out a truck with two guys for about three hours today. They setup 3 different 12'x8' and 16'x16' simple stages and we made as much as the all day sound job tomorrow with line arrays and 10 wedges and 3 guys for a day.
Basically staging supplements our sound habit...

And yes, video is a very large investment. I'm at least $100k in on video panels and I could use more. However it has made us an even more sought after partnering company than before. We have walls out on another company's gig now and it also added 8 movers and a bunch of wireless rental because we were already going.

That's not to say video is for everyone and every market. The trick is to figure out your market and region and match those with your skills and capacity to figure out where to make some money.

Yeah, my projector and TV's only get used 1-5 times per year so video isn't an amazing investment for me. It's decent though as I haven't spent a ton on the TV's. I have access to a 30x 2'x2' panel 18mil pitch led wall that I try to use for DJ stuff. I'd love to have a 100k video wall...but that just doesn't make sense for me right now.

Thanks for all the thoughts though!
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #221 on: May 09, 2017, 12:26:01 PM »

Good thoughts, I'll work on implementing them. Thanks Ray, you always have great wisdom!

It does take time to build your name and brand up. You have to demonstrate at every show *why* someone should hire you, as we already have talked about why you don't want it to be on price alone. :)

- Website: I think it's beneficial, but to be candid, a majority of the big players in my area have very little in website/social media presence. Once you hit a certain point, it becomes less about that and more about who you know and who knows you. I doubt Clair has ever booked a show solely because they have a website.

I agree, I just want a basic professional looking website that casually points to my Facebook page (that holds all my photos from gigs) for those who are curious as to my past performances/if I'm the real deal...

- As mentioned before, networking is definitely a key factor. Getting in front of the people who make decisions is paramount. And, of course, belonging to local professional associations is always a supportive thing to do-- but they hold events, so being "the guy" they're going to think about next time they are planning something is a good thing!

Agreed, I'm working on the networking and since putting my mind/energy/focus on that aspect I have grown in my abilities as well as actually finding people. It's slow going, but it's working.

One cool thing is there's a Church supply company down here who needs an installer/integrator; I'm meeting with the owner tomorrow to go over how a partnership might work out between us.

I need to try and thinkup ideas about how it might work logistically. Obviously because they are a supplier materials should come through them. But who's making profit on the materials, am I only doing labor, what about who's name is on the project, etc?

Sometimes you make a strategic donation to an organization. I know we always say, "Know what you're worth, and charge it," but every once in awhile, you have the opportunity to make a major connection with it that you might not otherwise have had. When we first worked with Seattle's Pride in 2007, we did it for free. They were on the brink of financial collapse because of a major debacle the previous year, so we decided to sponsor their sound in 2007. It was a gamble, but it paid off-- because now, 10 years later, we're their exclusive provider and that weekend represents over $20k in billing. Takeaway: Sometimes you need to be in the right place at the right time, but don't be afraid to make a strategic decision like that.
Here's a learning experience for the both of you.

The difficult/grey part is who you do for free and who you do for fee. But at this stage in the game for me, it's not a big deal either way probably. Just don't do the free ones too much, is a decent rule of the thumb.

See, he's making quotes based on nowhere close to the right amount of information. My first answer for ANY request is "sure!" Let's make it work for you. Price? Well, let's chat details... if they just ask how many speakers we own, or how many people can we cover- those are the wrong questions to be answering up front, since every event has different requirements. (And 4 VerTecs are going to cover more than 8 Mackie 450s, so you can't go by sheer number of speakers alone.) You need to SMACK HIM DOWN and tell him to stop f'ing up the opportunities! :) Client asks your friend if he can run the show? He tells them, "Sure! Let's talk about the details and we can get you a quote." Even if he's not doing it himself, but just passing the client off to you, he needs to understand that by committing to a show size/perceived limit of your service capabilities, he's driving the customer to another provider who is able to provide the level of service required (even if that was the company you would have cross-rented in anyways!).

Agreed. I need to talk to him a bit about that. He does come to me for ideas on pricing stuff a bit, but he's in a different market than I am (bar sound vs full events) so the advice from the forum for me and my company doesn't always directly translate to him.

Eric covered this a bit. And his 4886 rig is scalable in different ways as opposed to my 4888 system. I can't do anything less than 4bx/side, whereas he can do 3bx/side mounted just fine. But, I've said it before-- the different systems are all Tools In The Toolbox. We started with an SRX rig ca. 2006 (4 SRX725s, 4-6 SRX728S). October of 2010, bought our first pair of VRX932LAPs. (Here's the funny part. One. Pair. Didn't buy the second pair until April of 2012. So, we had a pretty shizzly deployment until that second pair was purchased!!) Third pair in September of 2013. You can get away with "a box a month" club on the VRX, barely... Powered VRX918SP subs to go with them. Flybars, some ST180 lifts, and got them up in the air.

Then, it was January of 2014 we started investing in the VerTec rig. Now, here's the nice part: since everything is JBL, it all plays well together. I use the SRX728S subs as the low end under the VerTecs. The VRX make great DJ booth monitors and front fills. The 725s can be side fills if needed. And I can cross-rent in *any* of these speakers as needed to cover larger shows. Except I keep just buying more 728s. Haha. You can *never* have too many subs. It was a bit of touch and go this year, conning Harman into selling me another 6, but pulled it off, just barely.

Makes sense. I know you and Eric have had good success with the JBl offerings, obviously me too with the SRX835.

I know I'm emotionally compromised, but every time I have heard the JBL line-arrays in operation I haven't enjoyed the sound. So really, once I get there I'd be looking for something else. But, that's a way's away and would need to demo various rigs if I'm putting big money down for something like that.

But, back to you-- the actual question of whether having that capability to handle those larger shows (that's also scaleable down if needed) is worth it-- well, really only something you can answer. When you're depending on cross rentals of gear, you are also at the mercy of the show schedule of the other company, and whether or not their gear is even available. When you own it, you KNOW that it's going to be there, it's going to be maintained, clean, and ready to rock. But, then you have to figure out how much that increased gear is costing you (NOT just from the purchase price, but also from the interest, if  you're financing it, the inability to purchase *other* things that might be more beneficial to your company, and the warehouse/storage space that this gear is costing you), and determine if it's fiscally worth it.

That's where the business plan comes into play: can you justify the purchase? Does it fit into the growth strategy of your business? Will you be able to pay for it in two years? [2 years being a good payoff time frame for anything. This isn't absolute, but if you're only needing something a couple of times a year, unless you can recoup 25% of your purchase price on every rental, you might want to consider renting on an as-needed basis.]

-Ray

Heh, business plan. I would love to work on that. But I'm not really sure I have enough data to even know where the market isn't saturated.

I'd like to do installs/consulting more full-time. I think that would work better as far as cash flow & money. There's also, the fun side of gigs (and the not so fun parts...loadin/out).

My general plan is do gigs/installs that make me money. Buy things that I can pay back within 1-2yrs and make money immediately and quickly. Don't buy things I want/think is cool. Only buy things that make me money or make life easier.

The speakers, was just a dream think about the future. Structure current purchases to achieve that goal gradually.

I think my next purchases will be pro5200 crank stands so I can lift heavy things safely. (I don't like getting close to the 220lb limit of the st132's like I have in the past.

Then charge accordingly for the better crank stands. #win.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #222 on: May 09, 2017, 07:10:39 PM »

I've been looking at 5 m/16' +\- lifts, too. Considering price, weight, and operational details, the DT Pro 5200 looks like the best value at the moment. I'll guy it if outdoors. Does anybody have direct experience with the Pro 5200?  (I kinda cringe at anything that has "pro" as part of its name, but maybe that's just me.)
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James Feenstra

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2017, 08:19:31 PM »

Unsexy things make money.  Drape and staging are VERY unsexy things....
Drape is totally sexy. In fact my client tonight said those exact words haha!

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #224 on: May 11, 2017, 11:15:56 AM »

Drape is totally sexy. In fact my client tonight said those exact words haha!

Where's the 'like' button?  :D

I've been looking at 5 m/16' +\- lifts, too. Considering price, weight, and operational details, the DT Pro 5200 looks like the best value at the moment. I'll guy it if outdoors. Does anybody have direct experience with the Pro 5200?  (I kinda cringe at anything that has "pro" as part of its name, but maybe that's just me.)

Basically when I saw them for less than the ST-180 and same weight (less height) but the direct drive/safety features are all well thought out + 100lbs instead of 200... it became a no-brainer for me.
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #225 on: May 11, 2017, 01:15:45 PM »

Where's the 'like' button?  :D

Basically when I saw them for less than the ST-180 and same weight (less height) but the direct drive/safety features are all well thought out + 100lbs instead of 200... it became a no-brainer for me.

That was my impression and analysis too, but I haven't had an opportunity to actually try one and look at the construction. Thank you, Nathan.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2017, 04:51:08 PM »

That was my impression and analysis too, but I haven't had an opportunity to actually try one and look at the construction. Thank you, Nathan.

I'm 90% I'll be picking up a pair this week or next. I'll let you know my thoughts/do a review when I get time.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #227 on: August 23, 2017, 03:31:58 PM »

For reference :)

Am I allowed to ask for job quotes on here?
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,164565.0.html

Aaaanddd this is going in my "Business Minded Questions" Thread :)

Good thread/post/questions.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind knowing what everyone quoted its just nice to know you're not being dumb. Most of my live sound pricing structure is based off of Ray's posts in my thread and any competition I have in the area. My install quotes are based off of Caleb Dueck's private help and competition in my area.

Sorry I'm off topic, but just wanted to give some context :)
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Simon Eves

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #228 on: August 24, 2017, 01:59:20 PM »

Am I allowed to ask for job quotes on here?
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,164565.0.html

As the one who started *that* thread, I have now read all of this one and feel like a complete amateur with way more things to consider and learn. What an amazing resource this forum is. Thanks, Nathan, and everyone else.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #229 on: August 24, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »

As the one who started *that* thread, I have now read all of this one and feel like a complete amateur with way more things to consider and learn. What an amazing resource this forum is. Thanks, Nathan, and everyone else.

Naw, I thank everyone else here. Don't thank me, I just try to help out those simpler questions to try and give back where possible :)

Still lots to learn! I'm building my AV install empire ;) [I can do it better for less, silly companies in my area don't even hook up the equipment they install  >:( ]

I'll do an update to this thread for my company's status when I get some free time (hopefully this weekend)
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This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Business Minded Questions
« Reply #229 on: August 24, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »


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