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[Nathan Riddle]

Great post Ray.  BTW this thread has over 10k views.  Didn't know we were that interesting.

We just finished the first of a series of shows that are technically more complicated and orders of magnitude larger than anything we have ever engaged in.  Tonight went off without a single production error.  The room looked great and the client was gushing.

I was so proud of my team.  The most valuable asset and to be part of the professional growth of these individuals is heartwarming.

Wow, I feel like a small celebrity Really though, it's you and Ray and all the others that are the true heroes of this thread and forum. You limitlessly give your knowledge and

That's awesome Scott!

Also, I think I see something of mine in use 

But this is a customer service business and if, after educating the client as to why ground stacked dashes are not really what they need, take their money and do the best you can under the circumstances.

As to whether or not you should buy a system, I'd say no.  If I were starting out today as a sole operator I'd have a conventional rig for most of my work and hire in line arrays or bigger conventional systems as needed.  Own the stuff that goes out most often and that makes a difference for your client - front fills, delay ring speakers, nice looking hardware (stands, cases, cables), etc.  The profit is in the service you provide which is mostly personal experience & knowledge.  Some products make it easier to deliver your services or are more/less appropriate but the thing that makes audio successful is YOU.

You're right, I don't want to go out and get something complicated that won't help me out. I just find myself sometimes being asked if I can cover for 3k people and unless I can do it myself it's not worth hiring out.

So If I can efficiently obtain something like 6x TH118's and 2x SH96HO (or the PG line) then I'd be set for when those events arise and in 10-15 gigs I could theoretically have it paid off.

To top it off, I'm curious as to what I could do with what I have now (or a little extra).

But this is all conjecture and mental masturbation (as JR calls it) as I won't be there for a few years.

I take it as a learning experience.

I haven't evaluated (in the shop or as a solo device) any Danley product introduced since 2012 so I may not have a fair or good grasp on what various models will do, performance-wise, but I'm skeptical that a pair of SH96 would cover 3,000 people at rock show levels and I'm certain that unless you got them up in the air and aimed down, you will have the same coverage issues as with any other ground stacked conventional system or dash array (although I'd expect the SH96 would have more even tonality).

We're not in the market for DSL products so I don't pester dealers for demos with their limited inventory but if Mike Hedden wants to send me some gear to play with I'd be happy to take it out and evaluate. 

There is an arena install of DSL products that I have evaluated for the end client who found a number of issues that I ascribe to the system design and very poor installation supervision (I think the steel contractor mis-read the prints and put speakers in the wrong places and aimed incorrectly).  In my report I didn't throw DSL under the bus because with the installation issues it's impossible to evaluate the speaker system until the installation issues are fixed (which will be never).  Report was accepted, filed, and I got paid.  End of story.  Oh, and the SH96HO was used extensively in the design and there are 12 or 16 of them for a 9,000 capacity arena, so I hope you understand why I'm skeptical that a pair will cover 3,000 adequately.

I just find myself sometimes being asked if I can cover for 3k people and unless I can do it myself it's not worth hiring out.

Ahhhh, but there's the kicker. If your prices are competitive/in line with others, you should be able to cross-rent in sufficient PA for *any size event* and still make money on the show. (Predicated on your cross-rental source providing you with a 25% minimum cross rental discount.) Unless you just truly cannot (for time reasons, or logistical challenges, or lack of a skill-set) do the show, you get a quote from your other production partner, you mark it back up 20-40% and there's the quote to the client. (And if you're JUST getting racks-and-stacks from the other company, you still have consoles, mics, wedges, etc all being billed for on your end, so you're making money from that as well!)

-Ray

Ray you're right. That's what I should be able to do. And I'll get back to that in a sec.

Currently though, few promoters (or other people with money who would pay me to provide sound/lights/video) know of me or my company.
I'm working on that (updating website, networking with people, young professionals, professional associations, flyers, thank you cards, etc).
That's not to say I don't have new clients, they are just fewer/farther between than I would like.

That said, one of my friend/employees has his own small company/shop and does a fair amount of small bar gigs. (not worth my time, they pay him in beer...), but because of that he is constantly talking/networking/promoting himself (and me on occasion if he knows he can't do the gig size). Thus I'm not privy to the conversations and I cannot directly interface with the prospective client.

Which gets me back to answering why when a gig comes up that's a bit larger than the proms, and youth events I typically run; yes I'd love to cross-rent.

But basically what I think is happening is: client asks friend if he can run show. Friend asks me what size show I can run (not knowing anything else). Friend tells client we can run this size show. We're cut out because show is too large for me/us. (even though if I was providing an official quote I'd crossrent a larger system and still get the gig possibly.

That all got me thinking about why you, Ray, went with your VerTec rig. Curious if having the capability of 1.5k-3k show sizes (while also being able to be scaled down easily for <500 person events) would help me out some. Not saying I'd immediately go there. But thinking/dreaming about the future.

[eric lenasbunt]

That all got me thinking about why you, Ray, went with your VerTec rig. Curious if having the capability of 1.5k-3k show sizes (while also being able to be scaled down easily for <500 person events) would help me out some. Not saying I'd immediately go there. But thinking/dreaming about the future.

Nathan, this is why we went with the JBL VT4886.  We fly 12/side and do well with 2500 person events outdoors. However most of our work is more in the 500-1000 person size and we run 6/side way more often then 12. We also use the yokes to get 3/side up nice and high. In other words it is a very flexible/scalable solution that our customers and techs rave about.
Also, infrastructure wise these boxes take a fraction of the iTechs as the 4888 or similar 3 way boxes. We run 6 boxes per 2 channel itech. So our 6/side rig runs off of 2 IT12k and 6 EAW SB750 subs off of 2 IT9k. Super efficient and sneaky big sounding rig. We also partnered up with 2 other local providers who each bought some boxes. That means we have close to 30 of them a phone call away which helps me bid gigs even on days when we may already have stuff happening.
It is also a very good sounding rig



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[Scott Holtzman]

Nathan, this is why we went with the JBL VT4886.  We fly 12/side and do well with 2500 person events outdoors. However most of our work is more in the 500-1000 person size and we run 6/side way more often then 12. We also use the yokes to get 3/side up nice and high. In other words it is a very flexible/scalable solution that our customers and techs rave about.
Also, infrastructure wise these boxes take a fraction of the iTechs as the 4888 or similar 3 way boxes. We run 6 boxes per 2 channel itech. So our 6/side rig runs off of 2 IT12k and 6 EAW SB750 subs off of 2 IT9k. Super efficient and sneaky big sounding rig. We also partnered up with 2 other local providers who each bought some boxes. That means we have close to 30 of them a phone call away which helps me bid gigs even on days when we may already have stuff happening.
It is also a very good sounding rig



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These are the yokes he is talking about.  With V5 tunings this is a damn good sounding rig.  JTR's new double 18's would be about the most economical sub to go with the system. 

The DB T4's we run have a similar system but the Vertec is a far more capable box.  The DB Tech, less expensive and amplified.

There is also a shot here of the DB tech pole mount bracket.  It is speced for three boxes also.

[Tim McCulloch]

The picture of the DB Tech DSA-4 show the mount with the stand adapter in the *stored* position.  Just in case someone looks at it and asks "how do they mount that thing?"

[Ray Aberle]

Currently though, few promoters (or other people with money who would pay me to provide sound/lights/video) know of me or my company.
I'm working on that (updating website, networking with people, young professionals, professional associations, flyers, thank you cards, etc).
That's not to say I don't have new clients, they are just fewer/farther between than I would like.

It does take time to build your name and brand up. You have to demonstrate at every show *why* someone should hire you, as we already have talked about why you don't want it to be on price alone.

- Website: I think it's beneficial, but to be candid, a majority of the big players in my area have very little in website/social media presence. Once you hit a certain point, it becomes less about that and more about who you know and who knows you. I doubt Clair has ever booked a show solely because they have a website.

- As mentioned before, networking is definitely a key factor. Getting in front of the people who make decisions is paramount. And, of course, belonging to local professional associations is always a supportive thing to do-- but they hold events, so being "the guy" they're going to think about next time they are planning something is a good thing!

That's not to say I don't have new clients, they are just fewer/farther between than I would like.

Sometimes you make a strategic donation to an organization. I know we always say, "Know what you're worth, and charge it," but every once in awhile, you have the opportunity to make a major connection with it that you might not otherwise have had. When we first worked with Seattle's Pride in 2007, we did it for free. They were on the brink of financial collapse because of a major debacle the previous year, so we decided to sponsor their sound in 2007. It was a gamble, but it paid off-- because now, 10 years later, we're their exclusive provider and that weekend represents over $20k in billing. Takeaway: Sometimes you need to be in the right place at the right time, but don't be afraid to make a strategic decision like that.

That said, one of my friend/employees has his own small company/shop and does a fair amount of small bar gigs. (not worth my time, they pay him in beer...), but because of that he is constantly talking/networking/promoting himself (and me on occasion if he knows he can't do the gig size). Thus I'm not privy to the conversations and I cannot directly interface with the prospective client.

Here's a learning experience for the both of you.

But basically what I think is happening is: client asks friend if he can run show. Friend asks me what size show I can run (not knowing anything else). Friend tells client we can run this size show. We're cut out because show is too large for me/us. (even though if I was providing an official quote I'd crossrent a larger system and still get the gig possibly.

See, he's making quotes based on nowhere close to the right amount of information. My first answer for ANY request is "sure!" Let's make it work for you. Price? Well, let's chat details... if they just ask how many speakers we own, or how many people can we cover- those are the wrong questions to be answering up front, since every event has different requirements. (And 4 VerTecs are going to cover more than 8 Mackie 450s, so you can't go by sheer number of speakers alone.) You need to SMACK HIM DOWN and tell him to stop f'ing up the opportunities! Client asks your friend if he can run the show? He tells them, "Sure! Let's talk about the details and we can get you a quote." Even if he's not doing it himself, but just passing the client off to you, he needs to understand that by committing to a show size/perceived limit of your service capabilities, he's driving the customer to another provider who is able to provide the level of service required (even if that was the company you would have cross-rented in anyways!).

That all got me thinking about why you, Ray, went with your VerTec rig. Curious if having the capability of 1.5k-3k show sizes (while also being able to be scaled down easily for <500 person events) would help me out some. Not saying I'd immediately go there. But thinking/dreaming about the future.

Eric covered this a bit. And his 4886 rig is scalable in different ways as opposed to my 4888 system. I can't do anything less than 4bx/side, whereas he can do 3bx/side mounted just fine. But, I've said it before-- the different systems are all Tools In The Toolbox. We started with an SRX rig ca. 2006 (4 SRX725s, 4-6 SRX728S). October of 2010, bought our first pair of VRX932LAPs. (Here's the funny part. One. Pair. Didn't buy the second pair until April of 2012. So, we had a pretty shizzly deployment until that second pair was purchased!!) Third pair in September of 2013. You can get away with "a box a month" club on the VRX, barely... Powered VRX918SP subs to go with them. Flybars, some ST180 lifts, and got them up in the air.

Then, it was January of 2014 we started investing in the VerTec rig. Now, here's the nice part: since everything is JBL, it all plays well together. I use the SRX728S subs as the low end under the VerTecs. The VRX make great DJ booth monitors and front fills. The 725s can be side fills if needed. And I can cross-rent in *any* of these speakers as needed to cover larger shows. Except I keep just buying more 728s. Haha. You can *never* have too many subs. It was a bit of touch and go this year, conning Harman into selling me another 6, but pulled it off, just barely.

But, back to you-- the actual question of whether having that capability to handle those larger shows (that's also scaleable down if needed) is worth it-- well, really only something you can answer. When you're depending on cross rentals of gear, you are also at the mercy of the show schedule of the other company, and whether or not their gear is even available. When you own it, you KNOW that it's going to be there, it's going to be maintained, clean, and ready to rock. But, then you have to figure out how much that increased gear is costing you (NOT just from the purchase price, but also from the interest, if  you're financing it, the inability to purchase *other* things that might be more beneficial to your company, and the warehouse/storage space that this gear is costing you), and determine if it's fiscally worth it.

That's where the business plan comes into play: can you justify the purchase? Does it fit into the growth strategy of your business? Will you be able to pay for it in two years? [2 years being a good payoff time frame for anything. This isn't absolute, but if you're only needing something a couple of times a year, unless you can recoup 25% of your purchase price on every rental, you might want to consider renting on an as-needed basis.]

-Ray

[eric lenasbunt]

I'm going to save everyone the time and energy.
If you want to make money in this business, buy staging, drape, uplights and video. Audio is fun, it's my love, but it doesn't seem to be where the profit is...


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[Scott Holtzman]

I'm going to save everyone the time and energy.
If you want to make money in this business, buy staging, drape, uplights and video. Audio is fun, it's my love, but it doesn't seem to be where the profit is...


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buy staging, drape, uplights and video.

3 out of 4 isn't bad?  I haven't made the staging plunge yet.  Eric is spot on.  I have only had my Rose drape for about 30 days and I am already thinking of another 100 panels. 

BTW - some great advice.  Get one of those plastic shipping wrap spools on a handle and bundle your uprights and crossmembers in groups of 4 and load them on top of everything else.  I wish someone had told me that 30 days ago.  All these years I never paid attention to how the pipe and base was transported.  I wish I had paid more attention.  Shout out to Keith Steele over at ProShow for that awesome tip.  They are a great partner and a JBL shop, one of the best recone specialists in the midewest.

[James Feenstra]

I'm going to save everyone the time and energy.
If you want to make money in this business, buy staging, drape, uplights and video. Audio is fun, it's my love, but it doesn't seem to be where the profit is...

Pretty much, although good video requires a lot of capital to put together.

Staging and Drape are two of the best ROI items for sure, especially when they're items that never really go out of date, or break. Next round of purchases for us will definitely be expanding on both. Truss can also go in this category for the same reason.

if you're going with uplighting, go battery powered with wireless dmx or be prepared for a hefty investment in cable/etc

[brian maddox]

Pretty much, although good video requires a lot of capital to put together.

Staging and Drape are two of the best ROI items for sure, especially when they're items that never really go out of date, or break. Next round of purchases for us will definitely be expanding on both. Truss can also go in this category for the same reason.

if you're going with uplighting, go battery powered with wireless dmx or be prepared for a hefty investment in cable/etc

I remember having a conversation with a friend about 20 years ago.  He said he and his friend wanted to start a company to do sound and 'maybe a little staging'.

I told him he needed to reverse those 2.  I'd love to say he listened to me, but i suspect that he simply got started and the market told him what to do.

He's since retired from the business [he'd made enough money... we're about 50] and his little company has a dozen stagelines [or more...  lost count] and enough BilJax to raise the state of Rhode Island 24" off the ground.

Unsexy things make money.  Drape and staging are VERY unsexy things....

[eric lenasbunt]

I remember having a conversation with a friend about 20 years ago.  He said he and his friend wanted to start a company to do sound and 'maybe a little staging'.

I told him he needed to reverse those 2.  I'd love to say he listened to me, but i suspect that he simply got started and the market told him what to do.

He's since retired from the business [he'd made enough money... we're about 50] and his little company has a dozen stagelines [or more...  lost count] and enough BilJax to raise the state of Rhode Island 24" off the ground.

Unsexy things make money.  Drape and staging are VERY unsexy things....

EXACTLY.
I sent out a truck with two guys for about three hours today. They setup 3 different 12'x8' and 16'x16' simple stages and we made as much as the all day sound job tomorrow with line arrays and 10 wedges and 3 guys for a day.
Basically staging supplements our sound habit...

And yes, video is a very large investment. I'm at least $100k in on video panels and I could use more. However it has made us an even more sought after partnering company than before. We have walls out on another company's gig now and it also added 8 movers and a bunch of wireless rental because we were already going.

That's not to say video is for everyone and every market. The trick is to figure out your market and region and match those with your skills and capacity to figure out where to make some money.


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[ProSoundWeb Community]