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Author Topic: Permanent install motor wiring  (Read 3483 times)

Erik Jerde

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Permanent install motor wiring
« on: July 24, 2016, 04:03:16 PM »

Hey guys, do any of you have experience or information on wiring of permanent motor connection points?  I'll be having an electrician do the job so that's no concern, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the conduit requirements correctly.  Since there's power and data my assumption is that the data is a different class of wiring than power and will need separate conduit. 

If conduit fill and de-rating are followed properly will there be problem jumping through one hoist flybox to a second?  My only thought there is that the pass-through conductors might be a problem since different classes of wiring will be in the same box (and not terminated there).

I'm waiting to hear back from my integrator what they have speced for motor connection style and if they are providing the hoist flyboxes.  Unless structural engineering comes back with a load problem I plan to hire my electrician the first week of august.

Thanks!
~Erik
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 06:48:10 PM »

Hey guys, do any of you have experience or information on wiring of permanent motor connection points?  I'll be having an electrician do the job so that's no concern, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the conduit requirements correctly.  Since there's power and data my assumption is that the data is a different class of wiring than power and will need separate conduit. 

If conduit fill and de-rating are followed properly will there be problem jumping through one hoist flybox to a second?  My only thought there is that the pass-through conductors might be a problem since different classes of wiring will be in the same box (and not terminated there).

I'm waiting to hear back from my integrator what they have speced for motor connection style and if they are providing the hoist flyboxes.  Unless structural engineering comes back with a load problem I plan to hire my electrician the first week of august.

Thanks!
~Erik

What motors are you running that have data?
Most use either high voltage or low voltage control for simple relays.

Also, are these installed motors for "permanent" loads so that you have service access to the speakers/equipment?

In A/V I have never run conduit to a motor, I always have the motors removeable for service.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 07:00:32 PM »

What motors are you running that have data?
Most use either high voltage or low voltage control for simple relays.

Also, are these installed motors for "permanent" loads so that you have service access to the speakers/equipment?

In A/V I have never run conduit to a motor, I always have the motors removeable for service.

Lee

By data I mean control.  I don't know how motor control is done, hence my asking the questions.

The motors are "permanently" installed (removable for service/inspection) for a mobile church setup in a school auditorium.  The conduit runs to a box where the motor is then plugged in.  That keeps the motor removable but makes the wiring permanent.  I've seen this done in clubs I've worked in.  The conduit runs back to a fixed motor control panel where a multi-channel motor control pickle plugs in to run the entire rig.  Really just an install version of what we'd use on an arena rig.  Just using standard motor cable isn't an option here.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 09:54:21 PM »

By data I mean control.  I don't know how motor control is done, hence my asking the questions.

The motors are "permanently" installed (removable for service/inspection) for a mobile church setup in a school auditorium.  The conduit runs to a box where the motor is then plugged in.  That keeps the motor removable but makes the wiring permanent.  I've seen this done in clubs I've worked in.  The conduit runs back to a fixed motor control panel where a multi-channel motor control pickle plugs in to run the entire rig.  Really just an install version of what we'd use on an arena rig.  Just using standard motor cable isn't an option here.

It looks to me, based on your initial post it looks like you have a structural engineer, an electrician, and an integrator involved.  If you have concerns that they are not doing things by code then that would be a red flag for me. 
If you are just asking questions for your own knowledge you need to be asking the qualified people that are involved with this.  They have the specifics for your situation, we don't, they are more qualified to answer accurately.  They should already have a training schedule, service schedule (routine inspections of the motors are required in most locales), insurance plans, certifications, etc.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 11:53:14 PM »

Motion labs make great install motor controllers. Typically I would run conduit to within about 5 feet of the motor, then run a hunk of SO jacket to the motor with connectors of choice.  Also, the higher end CM motors do have data encoders on them so they can be raised and lowered to preset locations.


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Erik Jerde

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 12:18:21 AM »

Motion labs make great install motor controllers. Typically I would run conduit to within about 5 feet of the motor, then run a hunk of SO jacket to the motor with connectors of choice.  Also, the higher end CM motors do have data encoders on them so they can be raised and lowered to preset locations.


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Thanks David, that's pretty much the information I was looking for.  For standard loadestar motors without the data encoders do you run the power and control in the same pipe or different pipe?  I'm just not clear on if the control lines are class 1 and can occupy the same raceway as the power lines.  Maybe it's different code-wise since it's after the motor controller?  Does that make sense?  Thanks!
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 06:30:51 AM »

Thanks David, that's pretty much the information I was looking for.  For standard loadestar motors without the data encoders do you run the power and control in the same pipe or different pipe?  I'm just not clear on if the control lines are class 1 and can occupy the same raceway as the power lines.  Maybe it's different code-wise since it's after the motor controller?  Does that make sense?  Thanks!

Code does not change.  Different wire classes must stay seperate.  They can be separated inside the same box with a rated divider. 
As far as what your particular control wiring requirements are there can be differences between motor series from a single manufacturer and from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Some use data, some use low voltage control, some are 120v control, etc.

You may already know this and already have entertainment riggers involved.
Entertainment motors that will suspend an installed load have different braking system requirements than motors that are merely used for overhead lifting to position a load and then transfer it to a permanent rigging location. 

Seismic requirements in some areas will not allow a load to be suspended by motors only.  They require that the load be transferred to cabling or chains for actual suspension, the motor may only be used to position the load unless it meets specific additional requirements that are beyond normal entertainment rigging requirements.  These requirements include things like; the load and all suspended components must be capable of freely swinging in a 45 degree arc and must not be able to strike any structure, all components must be rated at 10:1 safety factor, the braking system must include specific additional requirements, etc.  The suspension must be by chain and not cable.  I am sure there are some others as well but these are the major ones coming to mind right now.

Also good to know, not all motors can be used in both motor up and motor down configurations so, depending on your long term plans (will these be used for other purposes later) you will want to be sure your needs are made clear to the supplier.

My apologies if you are already aware of these things but there will be people who read this who are not.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 01:47:11 PM »

Code does not change.  Different wire classes must stay seperate.  They can be separated inside the same box with a rated divider. 
As far as what your particular control wiring requirements are there can be differences between motor series from a single manufacturer and from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Some use data, some use low voltage control, some are 120v control, etc.


The best source of information is probably the manufacturer's recommendations-since wiring class is determined by the power supply ahead of it.  Also, code is always the minimum, so it could very well be possible to meet code, but have a technical (noise, etc) reason why that installation would not work or be reliable.  The code and the inspector only care that your install be safe-doesn't really matter to them if it actually works.

Class 1 circuits can run in the same raceway as power if the wires are insulated for the highest voltage present in the raceway and they are associated with the powered equipment.   In this case, they would be associated, so the other question would be the voltage rating.  If the hoists are 480 VAC, there would be fewer "low voltage" cables that would be permitted since many are rated at 300 volts.
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Steve Swaffer

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Re: Permanent install motor wiring
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 01:47:11 PM »


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