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Author Topic: New Sound system for church  (Read 5278 times)

Muan Valte

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New Sound system for church
« on: July 22, 2016, 09:21:14 AM »

Hi everyone,
Glad to come across this site. I'm from a small remote town called Churachandpur in North-east India. We are planning to purchase a new Sound system for our church. The existing system will be used elsewhere. So, I am hoping to get some good advice here.

The church building is rectangular. The length is 120', width is 60' and ceiling height 28'. The floor and walls are concrete with false ceiling. There is echo /reverberation problem but it is not too bad.

The stage (pulpit area) is 60'×20` with the elders seated to the left of the pulpit. The congregation seating area is 60'×90` with circulation area of 60'×10' between the stage and the congregation.

We did some research, thanks to the internet, but are not confident enough. We have the following options in mind :
(1)For lectern mic- Shure MX 412, for  choir- Shure SM137 and for other purposes- Shure SM58.
(2) Mackie pro fx 16 for mixing the musical instruments,  Allen and Heath PA20 as main mixer.
(3) Alto TS215W (2 nos) as monitors for musicians
(4) EON 612 or QSC K8 (2nos) for voice on the the stage.
(5) EON 612 or QSC K8 (3/4 pairs) as main speakers to be mounted on either side of the walls

The desire is to have even sound coverage through out. So, we are aiming for distributed placement instead of center cluster.

Hoping to get helpful suggestions.
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Josh Millward

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 09:37:50 AM »

Just be sure to get the sound aimed on the congregation, not on the side walls. Point the loudspeakers directly at the people's ears.

To that end, better quality loudspeakers would help. However I am guessing that the budget is pretty limited which is driving the selection of this equipment.
 
If you are pretty locked in with your design and your equipment choice, the only thing I can think to add to the list would be a device to provide delay and EQ for the loudspeaker zones. Since you want to put the loudspeakers down the side walls, you will need to add delay to each pair of loudspeakers that are further and further away from the front. This will help keep the sound in better alignment as you move from the front to the rear of the sanctuary.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 02:59:14 PM »

Please describe the nature of your worship service, including musical style, instrumentation, and speaking. Do you know what your target loudness is?

Understanding this will help the folks here give better advice. Different styles have different demands on equipment.
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Thomas Le

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 04:09:06 PM »

Why 2 mixers?
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 06:16:54 PM »

As for FOH (main/audience) speaker placement, you should seriously consider trying to fly them as a center speaker or cluster from the ceiling. Of course, this may require a different speaker than you have selected.

This will provide a much more natural sound field for the audience than placing the speakers on the side walls. As the visual stage tends to be centered, having the sound come from where the audience is facing is less distracting. One interesting principle of perception is that, due to the stereophonic position of our ears, it is much easier for us to identify the source of the sound on a horizontal line than on a vertical line. When our ears tell us the sound is coming from a place other than what our eyes tell us, it increases our mental processing and can become fatiguing. Since positioning is not so critical on a vertical line, the distance between the actual source and apparent source of the sound can be increased. So having the sound some distance overhead of the actual source isn't nearly as problematic as having it some distance to the side.

Also, placing speakers on each side of the room has a tendency to create areas of comb filtering where, due to the fact that you're not always equidistant from the speakers, you get either cancellation or construction. That can make things sound really bad, and can lead to people avoiding seating in some areas. Placing speakers in the center rather than at the sides avoids this comb filtering effect.

When you place a speaker cluster overhead at the front of the seating area (just over the front of the stage or maybe a little bit out), I'd estimate that you will have a throw ratio of somewhere around 1:4 (comparing distance between the loudspeaker and the front row vs. back row). With on-axis measurements, the back row would be around 6-8 dB quieter than the front row (law of inverse squares). Because the front row is somewhat off-axis (assuming that the speaker is "aimed" to about 3/4 of the way back), it will tend to be a little quieter than if it were on-axis, so you may find that the difference between front and back is around 3-4 dB. Often, placing the speaker overhead and properly aiming it provides better coverage than placing multiple speakers on the side walls.

However, the length of your sanctuary compared to the height is a pretty long ratio, so you may actually need to have some fill speakers partway back.  Any rear fill speakers need to be properly delayed, so the sound arriving from them does not arrive at the listener's ears before the sound arriving from the main front speakers. That would be even worse than having no fill speakers at all!

In live audio settings, running your system in stereo generally doesn't produce good results unless your system is properly set up (expensive) and you have extensive experience operating a stereo or L-C-R system. This is because very few seats in the house will receive the left and right signals equally and in the proper timing.

The above is brainstorming based upon acoustic principles; it is not a replacement for proper engineering. Any equipment placed overhead should be designed for overhead installation and installed with proper rigging materials and practices according to engineered plans. Those plans should take into account the structure that is supporting the load, as well as other loads supported by the structure, so the structure itself is not subject to failure from overloading.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 06:20:09 PM by Jonathan Johnson »
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Muan Valte

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2016, 01:18:34 AM »

Thanks everyone!

Two mixers....? - since the church is big, there is problem of communication between the musicians and the sound operator who is seated in the centre. So, the second mixer is intended for the musicians 'monitors.

Worship style....? Preaching is very important. Congregational singing is done mostly with the accompaniment of one or two simple traditional drums made of leather. However, on special occasions all kinds of contemporary instruments such as electric guitars, drum and keyboard are used.

Loudness......? The older generation do not want the music to be too loud, whereas the youths want it to be loud. So, it's difficult to say about the loudness level desired. I guess the system would have to be in a position to accommodate both the extremes.

Central cluster vs distributed system.....? Central cluster seems to be the preferred choice by most consultants. I do believe it to be most suitable but I doubt whether we will be able to fly the loudspeakers high up  in the ceiling. We can give it a try. How should we fly or place the loudspeakers? Should it be two speakers with one facing down on left front side, the other facing down on right front side, and a third bigger loudspeaker facing the rear portion? Distance between the loudspeakers? Also, please suggest the loudspeakers which will be suitable for this.

Delay....? I have read a lot about delay in case of using fill in speakers or in distributed system. Do we need separate delay instrument or is it part of the mixer?

Thanks everyone. We really need your expert advices. We are far away from big cities and calling over sound consultants to our church would be expensive.
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Scott Slater

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2016, 08:07:40 AM »

Two mixers....? - since the church is big, there is problem of communication between the musicians and the sound operator who is seated in the centre. So, the second mixer is intended for the musicians 'monitors.

You may want to look at Allen & Heath's Qu or GLD series, and consider adding a ME1 (or 2) for your monitor mixing on stage.
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Muan Valte

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2016, 01:50:10 PM »

Thanks for the suggestions that I have received. However, it will be really helpful if any of you can spare some time to look into the needs of our church. You may consider that we are starting from scratch. We are thinking of overhauling the whole sound system and we really need expert advice.

I have tried to explain as best as I could about our situation and our needs in my previous postings. I have also attached drawings of our church (bird's eye view and side view) alongwith the dimensions.

Praying and hoping to get complete solutions for our church's sound system through this forum, if that is not asking too much.
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2016, 04:21:13 PM »

Thanks everyone!

Two mixers....? - since the church is big, there is problem of communication between the musicians and the sound operator who is seated in the centre. So, the second mixer is intended for the musicians 'monitors.

Worship style....? Preaching is very important. Congregational singing is done mostly with the accompaniment of one or two simple traditional drums made of leather. However, on special occasions all kinds of contemporary instruments such as electric guitars, drum and keyboard are used.
How often do you have a contemporary band?  If it's not more than a couple times per year, you may be better suited to concentrate on the spoken word for the installed system and rent a larger system for your special occasions.

Quote
Loudness......? The older generation do not want the music to be too loud, whereas the youths want it to be loud. So, it's difficult to say about the loudness level desired. I guess the system would have to be in a position to accommodate both the extremes.
People generally seem to be happy with sound pressure level in the mid 80s dBA.  A lot of complaints about things being too loud are because the mix is bad or they don't like the music.  A complaint about it being too soft might be also be a mix issue as well where they were just unable to understand the words.  I'd say people notice clarity (or lack thereof) more than volume. 

Quote
Central cluster vs distributed system.....? Central cluster seems to be the preferred choice by most consultants. I do believe it to be most suitable but I doubt whether we will be able to fly the loudspeakers high up  in the ceiling. We can give it a try. How should we fly or place the loudspeakers? Should it be two speakers with one facing down on left front side, the other facing down on right front side, and a third bigger loudspeaker facing the rear portion? Distance between the loudspeakers? Also, please suggest the loudspeakers which will be suitable for this.
Getting speakers high up is not difficult.  It's getting them to stay there that is the issue.  You have to have a structure strong enough to support several times the weight of the speaker in order for it to be safe - codes very from place to place. How they are laid out depends on the speakers themselves.  Some speakers have a wide enough dispersion that only one would suffice.  I've seen places with one center speaker, two center speakers, 3 center speakers etc. There are several companies that make high quality equipment of all deferent types and depending on the brand and the product line, the installation will have to be different to achieve the same result.  Unfortunately, no one on an internet forum can give you sufficient advise in their area unless they visit your space personally.

Quote
Delay....? I have read a lot about delay in case of using fill in speakers or in distributed system. Do we need separate delay instrument or is it part of the mixer?
The mixers you mention do not have built in delay.  Also be aware that there is a a sound effect called "delay" that simply repeats the sound over and over again (some people call it "echo", though a lot of SFX processors have separate programs for "echo" and "delay") and this is quite different from the delay used in a distributed speaker system which simply plays the same thing a short time after it is produced.  Various "system processors" out there have options for delayed speakers.

Quote
Thanks everyone. We really need your expert advices. We are far away from big cities and calling over sound consultants to our church would be expensive.
It might be expensive now, but not as expensive as completely re-installing a new system a few years down the road because it didn't fit your needs.  You often do get what you pay for.
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Irvin Pribadi

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Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 01:06:17 AM »

Muan,
I too agree that a flying center cluster to be a better fit for your situation. Multiple sound sources simply interferes with each other and reduces coherence.
OTOH rigging the center cluster to be hung 20 feet up is a very risky business unless you know exactly what the roof structure can support and have high confidence in the quality of your rigging hardware and setup.

If not flying then it'll have to be a stand on each side. I'd suggest getting them up on stage and as high as possible.
I'd prefer less speakers with higher output than many speakers with less output mounted all over the place.
On paper the JBL PRX712 is 9dB louder (which is a lot) than the EON612 and is only slightly more expensive.
Musician monitor: rather than having two 15" speakers, I'd suggest 4 smaller monitor speakers that can be placed closer to each musician.

Mixer: With the two mixers you have listed, I'd rather go with one digital mixer like the Behringer X32 Compact which is just slightly more than the cost of those two mixers combined but has 10x the capability (including speaker delay). For musician monitor mix, the sound person can be up close to the stage and use a smartphone to adjust monitor mix remotely. Another option to reduce cost is to purchase used.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New Sound system for church
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 01:06:17 AM »


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