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Author Topic: d&b B22  (Read 8162 times)

Scott Holtzman

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2016, 09:58:20 pm »

d&b manufacture remotely amped powered speaker systems;  an approach i frankly wholeheartedly endorse. 

Saying that you 'have to' use d&b amps with their speakers as though that were a bad thing fails to grasp the intent behind the system.  After all, you 'have to' use Meyer amplification with their boxes too. 

This annoying insistence on pairing manufacturer amplification and processing with speaker cabinets leads to a remarkable consistency in deployment.  Which means i can walk into any d&b rig anywhere and know exactly what i'm getting.  And that is a Very Good Thing.

Vue Also has the processing and the amps in one package.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

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eric lenasbunt

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 08:57:45 pm »

The system approach is the way to go, not something to be complained about. Our Vertec rig sounds infinitely better on itechs with the system processing presets. You can't really even get them close trying to roll your own. Consistency and taking the guesswork out of setup for me and my engineers is well worth the premium for the system amps. 
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Anton Tumas

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2016, 06:33:37 pm »

Heard 12 of these at Burning Man this year! The setup was on the Mayan Warrior, which dominated this year big time. A 10 hang of V8 and V12 (2 at the bottom) and 12 of these bad boys flush-mounted inside the art car. They ran it a little louder than I like, but overall this was a super yummy system, my fav. that I heard. Better tuning than last year and they're now using D80 on everything.

Super clean and punchy, plenty of low end for house and techno (the only format played on this system). Night and day vs. B2 IMO, a big step forward.

These are rated 143dB in full space, so that's a 149dB of half-space output, which is kinda crazy to think about out of a dual-18 box. That's 4dB more than a B2 which ain't no slouch.
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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2016, 06:57:15 am »

I am very curious at which frequency will that sub output 149 dB Ón 2pi space...
Probably WLS SPL ( when lightning strikes)
I played with 2 J sub and 2 J infra's on their amps and on Powersoft amps to hear the difference. Night and day!!! I am a fan of full system design like these, or KV2, Lacoustics,nexo,Danley  etc. But not on sub duty. Because most of the time, the setting is not suited for all music genres.
I've measured the subs oudoors with B&K 2270 with 4938-002 mic-preamp from the university I study and I got Lcpeak at 2 m of 145 dB from all of them at the same time ! So that would be 139 dB peak from single and around 136 dB Max RMS SPL. That is a measured number. I have always wondering where these companies take their numbers.
After that we decided to change the drivers inside with BC21DS115-8 on infra and 18SW115-8 on sub and then used the infra on K20 and the jsub on a K10,reinforced the enclosure after they broke appart and got 149 dB Lcpeak. And I promise you that I could keep that peak all day with a high crest factor.
I set up the device on Leq full spectrum on stupid bass heavy songs like Dullatron- Assassins on full 3 minutes I got 138 dB at 2 meters from those modified.
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Kevin McDonough

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2016, 09:21:20 am »

I am very curious at which frequency will that sub output 149 dB Ón 2pi space...
Probably WLS SPL ( when lightning strikes)
I played with 2 J sub and 2 J infra's on their amps and on Powersoft amps to hear the difference. Night and day!!! I am a fan of full system design like these, or KV2, Lacoustics,nexo,Danley  etc. But not on sub duty. Because most of the time, the setting is not suited for all music genres.
I've measured the subs oudoors with B&K 2270 with 4938-002 mic-preamp from the university I study and I got Lcpeak at 2 m of 145 dB from all of them at the same time ! So that would be 139 dB peak from single and around 136 dB Max RMS SPL. That is a measured number. I have always wondering where these companies take their numbers.
After that we decided to change the drivers inside with BC21DS115-8 on infra and 18SW115-8 on sub and then used the infra on K20 and the jsub on a K10,reinforced the enclosure after they broke appart and got 149 dB Lcpeak. And I promise you that I could keep that peak all day with a high crest factor.
I set up the device on Leq full spectrum on stupid bass heavy songs like Dullatron- Assassins on full 3 minutes I got 138 dB at 2 meters from those modified.


i wouldn't pay much attention to D&B's peak SPL numbers. They're great sounding products and the hire shop I do most of my freelance work for has switched over to D&B so I use V series on pretty much most of the work I do these days, but their max SPL numbers are always pretty much wishful thinking.

However outside of that, while its fun for us to play with these things on occasion trying to get to the maximum SPL possible and trying to squeeze every last db out of the sub isn't really the point.

As with all the major manufacturers, you don't want to pay all that money for a system that is used for professional hire work and then have to worry that if the music isn't of a high enough crest factor or some other factor isn't quite right you'll blow your drivers. You want them to be built proof and reliable, and work gig after gig and earn you money. I'm sure you probably could squeeze another few db out of the subs from d&b's range but the limiters and processing are set fairly conservatively to simply give good, undistorted sound and to prevent all but a major catastrophe damaging the driver and leading to repair bills. 

k
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radulescu_paul_mircea

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2016, 10:26:34 am »

Trying to squeeze the most out of anything is what I do. Why pay 6 subs instead of 4 and the amps necessary, when one with a good knowledge on how the drivers and amps behave can set limitter and compressors to have 3 dB more and still keep the sound clean and the drivers risk free?
Look at these for an instance
http://3s.lv/files/download/34
Same subs but with better drivers and amps (but half the price). The same idea I had but on a larger scale as they have their production line already.
Also why not paying enough attention to specs? If they say the go to 149 dB, they should. I know this is a matter over discussed here but it should be because it's a big problem. People like Anton Tumas from the previous post will believe what they write because he trusts them. If he is an event organizer he would choose that brand because when I go with a mammoth size FLH 60*60*30 dual 21 IPal that gets 144 dB SPL RMS   with an F3 of 28 hz and he reads that these subs go to 27 hz at 149 dB at half the dimensions he will choose him.so I would be forced to say a peak number where I would add 6 dB for the peak and another 3 from the sine mean and only then I would have a chance. I would have to lie because they lie...
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2016, 12:01:25 pm »


 max SPL numbers are always pretty much wishful thinking.


Max SPL numbers can mean VERY different things, and are often not what the user can actually get out of them.

1: Is the "Max SPL" some sort of average max-or a single peak in the response that gives a peak, but the overall level is lower?

I have seen this on quite a few products, and sometimes that "peak" in the response is 10dB louder than what the rest of the response can actually do.

On one particular sub model that peak is actually at 1,800 Hz.  Not exactly in the sub range-----------

HOWEVER-the cabinet CAN produce that peak so they are not lying, but they are NOT telling the user the "truth" as they would like it to be told to them.

2: The other peak is simply the maximum level on a short duration signal.  This is simply a misunderstanding of the user-not the manufacturer.

The problem is that normal SPL meters cannot read that peak (the integration time of the meter is to slow/long), so the user "thinks" that the speaker is not producing the level the spec sheet says.

YES the speaker is-but YOU don't have the proper tools to read it.  You need a PEAK response SPL meter (not fast or max).  The cheap meters simply are to slow.

3: Another is "What does it sound like at that SPL?".  In many cases the loudspeaker CAN produce a particular SPL, but it sounds so bad you don't want to listen to it at that SPL. 

Currently we don't have a spec of "Maximum listenable SPL".

That would be a VERY interesting spec and to see how it is applied, if it ever happens-I doubt it.

If you have a good peak reading SPL meter, you can measure the same signal at the same location,  and get measurements that are 30dB or more different.

They are all correct-for the particular weighting and time applied to them.

Loudness is NOT a simple thing
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Ivan Beaver
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2016, 01:41:14 pm »

Currently we don't have a spec of "Maximum listenable SPL".

Couldn't that spec be a simple, xxx.x average spl @ 10m on type 1/0 meter in a field with closest object > 100m away while maintaining less than 10% (Arbitrary*) total average distortion?

*find out what is an acceptable distortion % to an average group of people. I think 10% is pretty horrid so...yeah; Could also be changed per octave too?

I would find those type of specs vastly more useful than the specs most devices currently employ. It would work for subs & mains and would tell us how a certain speaker compares to others.

Perhaps you should speak to the marketing folks and employ a vastly superior ONE NUMBER EVALUATION SPEC, echo....echo........echo...  :P
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2016, 05:23:06 pm »

Couldn't that spec be a simple, xxx.x average spl @ 10m on type 1/0 meter in a field with closest object > 100m away while maintaining less than 10% (Arbitrary*) total average distortion?

*find out what is an acceptable distortion % to an average group of people. I think 10% is pretty horrid so...yeah; Could also be changed per octave too?

I would find those type of specs vastly more useful than the specs most devices currently employ. It would work for subs & mains and would tell us how a certain speaker compares to others.

Perhaps you should speak to the marketing folks and employ a vastly superior ONE NUMBER EVALUATION SPEC, echo....echo........echo...  :P
And you run into the same issues as "Peak SPL"

Is that distortion at on e ONE freq?

Or an average across the band?

How do you do the average?  Is it by freq or octave?  How much smoothing is allowed?

What IS the operating band? 20-20K or the claimed -3dB points on the spec sheet?

It could get quite interesting how different people "interpret" the spec and use the "holes" to their advantage.

And if you are talking about SPL at that distortion-the same issue could come back up.  What if some freq that are low in distortion actually boosted to get a higher SPL rating-even though the freq response would not be good?

I could see something like "tuned for maximum undistorted output"  Which means it sounds like crap, but at some freq it is clean and meets the "measurement parameters.

How do you measure that SPL?  Using what type of meter/response etc.

Once you start digging into it, it gets pretty complicated pretty quick.

Trying to come up with a single number for a VERY complicated subject is NOT easy.  And would be full of misinterpretations of the "rules".
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Ivan Beaver
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: d&b B22
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 11:40:51 am »

And you run into the same issues as "Peak SPL"

Is that distortion at on e ONE freq?

Or an average across the band?

How do you do the average?  Is it by freq or octave?  How much smoothing is allowed?

What IS the operating band? 20-20K or the claimed -3dB points on the spec sheet?

It could get quite interesting how different people "interpret" the spec and use the "holes" to their advantage.

Once you start digging into it, it gets pretty complicated pretty quick.

Trying to come up with a single number for a VERY complicated subject is NOT easy.  And would be full of misinterpretations of the "rules".

Haha, Ivan you're the best! I was trying to be a bit tongue in cheek.

Very good points, especially the ones about people using the 'holes' in the rules to their advantage to get a vastly superior one number spec.

Though, I'd like to believe the more reputable manufactures wouldn't try to do such a thing. and stick within the intent of the distortion spec.

A thought: just like SPL, Impedance, and Phase would a distortion graph work well?
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