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Author Topic: Infants in Church  (Read 11421 times)

Frank DeWitt

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 04:20:34 PM »

Babies tend to hang around other babies and young children of crying age.  They are routinely exposed to levels higher then your service.
https://lasermom.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/crying/
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 10:23:26 PM »

This is a legitimate concern.  Whether provable damage is happening or not, it is reasonable for parents to want to protect their kids, and 90dBA slow is pretty significant volume.  If it was a single primma donna parent or family that was concerned, that would be one thing, but it won't be; other families will at least wonder about it.  When my kids were really little I kept them out of the music part of the service, too.

There are two possible outcomes: 1. those that have unaddressed concerns will leave the church and you will lose out on (IMO) healthy church diversity and the attendance base, or 2. you figure out a way to have a quieter place for kids (which works both ways - a crying room is just as much about reducing distractions to the congregation from the noisy kids), and your church will become a lot more family friendly.

If you have a really narrow target audience, maybe choice 1 is what you want.  I can say from experience that churches and families evolve, and if you chase away everyone who doesn't fit that mission, it becomes very difficult to sustain what you're trying to do.  If you have hopes of keeping your congregation as their stages of life change, I would strongly recommend figuring out a way to handle the issue.
This is what I was thinking may be the case.  This particular couple are not prima donna types, they are actually among my closer friends in the church, so they may be more comfortable coming to me about it than some of the others.  We only have around 50 members or so right now, but we have had four weddings in the past year (this couple was the first of that batch).  More babies are likely to come. 

I think the only real way to solve the issue would be some sort of construction or a change in location.  Currently, the main worship space is 26' by approx 40', and the stage is on the long wall. It's far from the best use of space in my opinion.  I've thought it might be good idea to put a wall up about 30'  inside (or more precisely, 10 feet from the current inner wall) to make a storage room for our tables and extra things, and reorient the room so the stage is on the short wall.  The trouble with adding a cry room to that is that we don't have central A/C, and we're in Florida, so A/C's necessity.  I'm not sure if we really want to put money into this current space, either.  I'll attach a couple pics to give you idea of the space see if you can think of solutions for it, though. 
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John L Nobile

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 01:56:13 AM »

When my kids were young (seems like yesterday) they would come out to see our show on occasion. I gave them headphone ear protectors and they thought they were pretty cool.
I think anyone concerned with their kids hearing should provide those. I don't see it as your problem. If it does bother you, have hearing protection there to hand out. That has to be cheaper and more effective than construction.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 09:13:42 AM »

I don't see it as your problem.
I'm curious if any of those on this thread blaming the parents have ever tried to grow a church.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2016, 09:28:51 AM »

This is what I was thinking may be the case.  This particular couple are not prima donna types, they are actually among my closer friends in the church, so they may be more comfortable coming to me about it than some of the others.  We only have around 50 members or so right now, but we have had four weddings in the past year (this couple was the first of that batch).  More babies are likely to come. 

I think the only real way to solve the issue would be some sort of construction or a change in location.  Currently, the main worship space is 26' by approx 40', and the stage is on the long wall. It's far from the best use of space in my opinion.  I've thought it might be good idea to put a wall up about 30'  inside (or more precisely, 10 feet from the current inner wall) to make a storage room for our tables and extra things, and reorient the room so the stage is on the short wall.  The trouble with adding a cry room to that is that we don't have central A/C, and we're in Florida, so A/C's necessity.  I'm not sure if we really want to put money into this current space, either.  I'll attach a couple pics to give you idea of the space see if you can think of solutions for it, though.
Taylor, I think ultimately you're right - you need construction or a different space.

In the interim though:

- It looks like you have a lot of noise for a small room.  I bet you could get to 85dB with a few changes and still make the music sound good, and probably better.  Minimizing stage volume is a wonderful, massively good thing.  Getting a partial drum enclosure would make a world of difference, and just like increasing stage volume is a vicious cycle where everybody keeps turning up to compete, reducing one loud thing will allow everybody else to turn down, too.  A drum shield is only half the solution though - you need some absorption otherwise the reflective drum shield just moves the problem.

- Your speakers are too low for good coverage.  This may sound counterintuitive, but getting the speakers up where they need to be will help with intelligibility, which may allow you to actually lower your volume while still getting the job done.

- In-ear monitors will further reduce stage volume.  It looks like your setup is fixed, so you could go with a wired solution, which is very reasonably priced.  The Behringer P1 wired packs are about $50 or so (get the power cord), and good buds are $100 or so.  Even just getting in-ears for your drummer and bass player will make a big dent in stage volume.

- Room treatment will help get rid of the mud, again increasing intelligibility and possibly allowing you to reduce level.  You can make your own panels out of mineral wool insulation covered with fabric (be sure to check into the rules about flame-retardant fabrics). 

- You might not need to build a permanent or full-height wall to provide some audio shelter.  An area with a 6' tall partition with a big acrylic window for visibility and some absorptive material would significantly reduce sound level but wouldn't necessarily affect air flow too much.  You will probably need to provide a couple small speakers to fill in the blocked sound.
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John L Nobile

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2016, 11:44:43 AM »

I'm curious if any of those on this thread blaming the parents have ever tried to grow a church.

My apologies. I know nothing about Church policies or thinking. I was posting from a secular viewpoint.



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Bryan French

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2016, 02:26:49 PM »

I run the service between 88-90 dBA-slow and the music last for 30-45 minutes at the beginning, and then another 15-20 minutes after the sermon.  Is this a valid concern?  I can't really run the service much quieter so that everyone can hear the music and sing along.

What are you using to record the 88-90 dB(A)-slow? From the pictures you've posted that would be one rockin' church to run 90 dB (A) in that small room. Without knowing anything about your church or worship styles it would be difficult to know what the actual volume levels are, but I would hazard a guess that the Leq, a much more important number for the sound dose your congregation is receiving, is much lower than 88-90 dB(A) over the course of your worship...depending on where someone is sitting. The volume is probably much louder for those sitting in the front row by the drummer. My point is, if you're just using a radio-shack style SPL meter then you aren't getting the whole picture, and your volume is probably much lower than you think it is.

At my church we monitor and log volume very closely using Rational Acoustics software with a calibrated microphone and preamp. Our SPL is usually between 85-94 dB(A)-slow for the worship part of the service with peaks somewhere around 98-102 dB(A). For the sermon SPL is usually around 77 dB(A)-slow. The A-weighted Leq(1-hour) is usually around 78-85dB, and we're one of the louder churches in our town.

Volume complaints in a church should be taken seriously, but I believe that it isn't the responsibility of tech to set the volume policy for a church. I think that should be set by the leadership/executive pastor and what their vision and goal for worship is. Each tech then should know and operate inside of the boundaries set by leadership. This simplifies volume complaints if you're mixing within the constraints set forth by the leadership. Your responsibility in all this would be to help leadership make an informed decision.

As others have said, infants and young children have very sensitive ears and with the makeup of your congregation this puts you in a difficult position. If I were mixing your service I would encourage parents with small children to sit as far away from the drums as possible. Getting those speakers safely up high and angled down would help a lot also.
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2016, 03:28:05 PM »

Yes, it's a Radio Shack analog meter we have.  I set the dial to 90 and the needle usually stays below the 0 during the music and usually doesn't go past the 6 above it. It's usually only that loud when the congregation likes the song and really songs out. We don't have a bass or any subs at the moment, so that is why I'm using A instead of C weighting. Our drummer is actually super quiet to the point I'm tempted to put mics on the kit.

I know the speakers are too low, but I'm not quite sure how to handle their placement. They don't have pole cups and the bottoms of them are actually finished the same as the sides. I kind of hate putting them directly on those little tables, actually. They came out of another church somewhere near Atlanta where I suppose they were flown. I don't really trust the ceiling in this building though, and we've had occasional need of them at other locations. The speakers themselves are excellent and have great sound, so I don't know how much of a quality loss would happen if we replaced them something budget friendly. The speakers are Klipsch KP-201s, an upgraded version of their "Heresy" speaker targeted specifically at the H.O.W. market. A new Heresy costs $1k/ box, can't be flown, and doesn't have a built in protecting circuit. That is at least how the differences were explained to me on the Klipsch forum. The speakers were given to us free of charge.

A couple people seem to think the volume is loud for the size of the room, but isn't it true that it would be easier to lower the volume in a large room? Everyone in here is pretty close to all the sources of volume and reflection.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2016, 03:54:47 PM »

Yes, it's a Radio Shack analog meter we have.  I set the dial to 90 and the needle usually stays below the 0 during the music and usually doesn't go past the 6 above it. It's usually only that loud when the congregation likes the song and really songs out. We don't have a bass or any subs at the moment, so that is why I'm using A instead of C weighting. Our drummer is actually super quiet to the point I'm tempted to put mics on the kit.

I know the speakers are too low, but I'm not quite sure how to handle their placement. They don't have pole cups and the bottoms of them are actually finished the same as the sides. I kind of hate putting them directly on those little tables, actually. They came out of another church somewhere near Atlanta where I suppose they were flown. I don't really trust the ceiling in this building though, and we've had occasional need of them at other locations. The speakers themselves are excellent and have great sound, so I don't know how much of a quality loss would happen if we replaced them something budget friendly. The speakers are Klipsch KP-201s, an upgraded version of their "Heresy" speaker targeted specifically at the H.O.W. market. A new Heresy costs $1k/ box, can't be flown, and doesn't have a built in protecting circuit. That is at least how the differences were explained to me on the Klipsch forum. The speakers were given to us free of charge.

A couple people seem to think the volume is loud for the size of the room, but isn't it true that it would be easier to lower the volume in a large room? Everyone in here is pretty close to all the sources of volume and reflection.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Taylor, your speakers aren't pointing at your people.  They may sound good sitting in their coverage path, but they aren't pointing at a good chunk of your congregation. 

You haven't talked about budget or your longer-range plans.  If it were me, I would consider flipping the room so the stage is on a short wall.  This reduces the angle you need to cover, and your existing speakers (once you get them up) will do a better job of covering your room.  You will also have more distance to work with, meaning the people in the back would be farther away.

Flying your speakers yourself isn't a good idea.  Since your stage is so shallow, you might be able to build a beefy shelving unit against the front wall on each side to set the speaker on.  You could put a slight down tilt (put a lip on the front to prevent it from sliding off) to point them at the audience.  Getting the bottom of the speaker to 7' if you can would be a big improvement.  Even though this would put the speakers behind the stage, you shouldn't have feedback trouble since most of the things on your shallow stage would be out of the speaker pattern, since most of the stage is between the speakers rather than in front of them.

Absorptive panels on the sides and rear of the room would look nice and significantly improve the room acoustics.
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Bryan French

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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2016, 05:32:46 PM »

Yes, it's a Radio Shack analog meter we have.  I set the dial to 90 and the needle usually stays below the 0 during the music and usually doesn't go past the 6 above it. It's usually only that loud when the congregation likes the song and really songs out. We don't have a bass or any subs at the moment, so that is why I'm using A instead of C weighting. Our drummer is actually super quiet to the point I'm tempted to put mics on the kit.
Thanks for the additional info. Going off the information you posted I wouldn't be worried about your volume levels. Your worship SPL sounds like it'd be closer to the mid 80's in SPL than 90 dB.

Quote
A couple people seem to think the volume is loud for the size of the room, but isn't it true that it would be easier to lower the volume in a large room?

People in your congregation think that? If so, there's always someone who thinks it's too loud. Keep in mind, for everyone who thinks it's too loud, there's at least one other person who thinks it isn't loud enough. Those that want it turned up usually don't complain, though.

I was approached a few weeks ago between services about the volume being at "rock concert" levels. I was explaining that although worship gets loud we monitor the levels and are nowhere near levels that are damaging to human hearing when I realized that she was complaining about the traditional service volume levels. Leq for about 35 minutes of worship was 82 dB(A) with a peak recorded at 88 dB(A). We have a 500 capacity gymnatorium, it's literally a basketball court, and our system is one HDL15-AS over five HDL10-A per side. It can get loud during contemporary worship...but 82 dB(A) of vocals, synth, and digital piano for hymns equals rock concert somehow...anyways, the point is you can't please everyone and in this situation it really helped to know that I was well within the expectations set forth by our leadership and have those to fall back on. 
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Re: Infants in Church
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2016, 05:32:46 PM »


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