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Author Topic: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads  (Read 13052 times)

Fred Dorado

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As with most, we are an older church with modern worship, including drums. We have come a long way, but still have a little bit of stage volume issues. Our stage no longer over powers the house, but is still loud enough where it impacts the house more than we would like.

I think much of what we are dealing with now is the drums vs. electric guitar. Guitarist can't hear himself because of drums, turns up amp and then everything gets louder. The team has a great attitude and wants to do whats best for worship, but this is a regular issue.

So, my drummer has been interested in electronic drums - he and I went to guitar center and played on some for a while and he liked them. Another friend recommended changing out the heads on our current set and getting some zildjian low volume cymbals and using some overhead mics, right now we have a kick drum mic and a single mic in middle of kit pointed at snare. It works and helps the house, but we don't really turn it up because stage volume is strong.

so right now I was looking at placing an order through guitar center tomorrow because of the 15% off.

Problem is I can't decide whether to get the Alesis Crimson set or the Zildjian L80's and Evans drum heads that were recommended.

I have $400 cash which would handle the changes for the acoustic kit, but would have to stretch a little to get the crimson set, which is easily doable.

I am a little worried about the volume on the L80's vs. the Evans drum heads, which are not designed as silent.

I am also not sure about the electric drums because of things I have heard. But my current drummer likes them and thinking it would allow him to go to headphones.

right now we have a GLD80 with 8 Aux channels going to Galaxy hotspot monitors - going to this from floor monitors and only 4 aux has really helped.

Any thoughts and input?

thanks

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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 04:03:24 AM »

As with most, we are an older church with modern worship, including drums. We have come a long way, but still have a little bit of stage volume issues. Our stage no longer over powers the house, but is still loud enough where it impacts the house more than we would like.

I think much of what we are dealing with now is the drums vs. electric guitar. Guitarist can't hear himself because of drums, turns up amp and then everything gets louder. The team has a great attitude and wants to do whats best for worship, but this is a regular issue.

So, my drummer has been interested in electronic drums - he and I went to guitar center and played on some for a while and he liked them. Another friend recommended changing out the heads on our current set and getting some zildjian low volume cymbals and using some overhead mics, right now we have a kick drum mic and a single mic in middle of kit pointed at snare. It works and helps the house, but we don't really turn it up because stage volume is strong.

so right now I was looking at placing an order through guitar center tomorrow because of the 15% off.

Problem is I can't decide whether to get the Alesis Crimson set or the Zildjian L80's and Evans drum heads that were recommended.

I have $400 cash which would handle the changes for the acoustic kit, but would have to stretch a little to get the crimson set, which is easily doable.

I am a little worried about the volume on the L80's vs. the Evans drum heads, which are not designed as silent.

I am also not sure about the electric drums because of things I have heard. But my current drummer likes them and thinking it would allow him to go to headphones.

right now we have a GLD80 with 8 Aux channels going to Galaxy hotspot monitors - going to this from floor monitors and only 4 aux has really helped.

Any thoughts and input?

thanks

There is no way the you guys could just buy a shield? Also in that price range I haven't heard too many electronic kits that sound good unless pricing is much cheaper in the US then what it is here. I'm thinking if the congregation can get enough together for a gld at least get a semi decent electric kit or make the acoustic work, also have you discussed with your drummer the possibility of playing with lighter sticks.

We have a very small stage in one hall which we recently switched to a Roland kv-15 kit but before it was acoustic and we never had issue with musos not hearing themselves but more with the cymbals being a bit loud outside.

Edit:

Tilt back stands for the guitar amps so that it's pointed at their face could also help if not already implemented
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 05:18:10 AM by Jean-Pierre Coetzee »
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2016, 10:43:21 AM »

we would need a full cage and those are 2k plus and we move our drums occasionally creating more difficulty. It could be done, but a little pricier and has some drawbacks.

We were looking specifically at the Alesis crimson - which I can get for $850 with the 15% off that ends today.

My wife, who is our worship leader, was unsure and worried about when we have other drummers, I showed her some demos on youtube and she liked them, thought they sounded good and said, "Now I am leaning towards electric" - but still not sure which way.

Our drummer is open to whatever is best.

We do have tilt back stands for the amps, which helps, but still an issues - we have always used them, so I am guessing it would be much worse if we didn't.

This is not as much of an issue as it has been before and we could go without making any changes, but would end up with same results, which aren't horrible, but could be better.

I am so on the fence - right now I could go with new heads and low volume cymbals and hold out for a nicer kit down the road or just get the Alesis Crimson - either way at the cost, neither will kill us in the long run, just trying to decide which way would be the best to go.



There is no way the you guys could just buy a shield? Also in that price range I haven't heard too many electronic kits that sound good unless pricing is much cheaper in the US then what it is here. I'm thinking if the congregation can get enough together for a gld at least get a semi decent electric kit or make the acoustic work, also have you discussed with your drummer the possibility of playing with lighter sticks.

We have a very small stage in one hall which we recently switched to a Roland kv-15 kit but before it was acoustic and we never had issue with musos not hearing themselves but more with the cymbals being a bit loud outside.

Edit:

Tilt back stands for the guitar amps so that it's pointed at their face could also help if not already implemented
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2016, 10:57:07 AM »

I didn't look up the kit you mentioned but make sure if you do go electronic that the kit has an individual line out for every drum....  You don't want to try to mix the kit on the kit itself. I promise. 

Also don't feel pressured to spend the $ right now.  Guitar center will have another sale and everything in there is negotiable anyway...  Take the time do the research and make the right decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2016, 12:09:06 PM »

thanks - I was thinking the same thing - but if I am going to do something soon, better now than later.

At this moment I am leaning towards the new heads and L80 cymbals and holding out on the electric if that doesn't work since it is livable now.



I didn't look up the kit you mentioned but make sure if you do go electronic that the kit has an individual line out for every drum....  You don't want to try to mix the kit on the kit itself. I promise. 

Also don't feel pressured to spend the $ right now.  Guitar center will have another sale and everything in there is negotiable anyway...  Take the time do the research and make the right decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2016, 01:33:25 PM »

The most effective trick I've seen for getting acoustic drums to quiet down is to use Pro-Mark Cool Rods, or something similar. 

I'm no fan of electronic drums, but if your drummer actually likes them, it should be less of an issue.  The problems I have with them are lack of dynamic range, poor sound quality, unrealistic feel, and difficulty mixing the sound of the different drums.  The Alesis Crimson at least appears to have the mesh heads, which are more like playing real drums, but you likely have to hit them harder to make a sound than a real drum.  It's a surprise to many people that because acoustic drums have a larger dynamic range, you can actually play them more quietly than electronic ones.  The volume of the electronic drum kit is fully dependent on the sound man, and the drummer can't compensate depending on the song, at least not with playing technique.  The Crimson also only has left and right outputs, no auxiliary outputs, or outputs for separate drums.  Since there are no sliders to control the volume of each drum on the module, it will probably take a large amount of time to get to a decent mix. Playing around with a couple kits at the music store here, I never got a mix that sounded right in either the drum monitor or my headphones. My biggest issue though of course is the sound quality.  I've never heard an electronic drum kit that sounded right in any context, including very expensive kits on very expensive systems, presumably run by competent engineers.  I will say though that in my experience, the electronic drums that sounded the best were turned up the loudest, and the best sounding kits have made by Yamaha.  Roland kits sound downright terrible in my opinion, but since I've never heard an Alesis kit outside of the music store, I can't comment on them.  The DM10 module has four outputs instead of two, so perhaps that should be something to consider if you really want electronic drums.  I will also say that if you have an inferior sound system, your electronic kit is never going as good as an acoustic kit, even if such a good-sounding kit actually existed. 

Guitar Center will have a Fourth of July sale in a little over a month and will probably offer similar, if not better deals.  I wouldn't hurry.
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DavidTurner

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2016, 01:50:44 PM »

I don't understand why, if the drums are too loud, you are micing them.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2016, 03:54:15 PM »

thank you, this is exactly the info I needed. I decided to go the acoustic route first.

What put me over the top was the red below - this was a concern as I was playing with them today.

thanks

The most effective trick I've seen for getting acoustic drums to quiet down is to use Pro-Mark Cool Rods, or something similar. 

I'm no fan of electronic drums, but if your drummer actually likes them, it should be less of an issue.  The problems I have with them are lack of dynamic range, poor sound quality, unrealistic feel, and difficulty mixing the sound of the different drums.  The Alesis Crimson at least appears to have the mesh heads, which are more like playing real drums, but you likely have to hit them harder to make a sound than a real drum.  It's a surprise to many people that because acoustic drums have a larger dynamic range, you can actually play them more quietly than electronic ones.  The volume of the electronic drum kit is fully dependent on the sound man, and the drummer can't compensate depending on the song, at least not with playing technique.  The Crimson also only has left and right outputs, no auxiliary outputs, or outputs for separate drums.  Since there are no sliders to control the volume of each drum on the module, it will probably take a large amount of time to get to a decent mix. Playing around with a couple kits at the music store here, I never got a mix that sounded right in either the drum monitor or my headphones. My biggest issue though of course is the sound quality.  I've never heard an electronic drum kit that sounded right in any context, including very expensive kits on very expensive systems, presumably run by competent engineers.  I will say though that in my experience, the electronic drums that sounded the best were turned up the loudest, and the best sounding kits have made by Yamaha.  Roland kits sound downright terrible in my opinion, but since I've never heard an Alesis kit outside of the music store, I can't comment on them.  The DM10 module has four outputs instead of two, so perhaps that should be something to consider if you really want electronic drums.  I will also say that if you have an inferior sound system, your electronic kit is never going as good as an acoustic kit, even if such a good-sounding kit actually existed. 

Guitar Center will have a Fourth of July sale in a little over a month and will probably offer similar, if not better deals.  I wouldn't hurry.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2016, 04:00:44 PM »

we mic'd the drums to get more control in the house. They actually do mostly ok in the house, just a little loud and no control. Also, we get a lot from cymbals and snare because of room, but need to boost low end.

The bigger issue is stage volume, which impacts the house and lessens the control from sound person.

The stage is somewhat loud, a lot of that is drums. Electric guitar player, who is right in front of drums, can't hear that well because of drums. he turns up his amp. Then drummer plays louder because stage is louder and then vocalist need a little more monitor.

Everyone has a great attitude and is willing to turn down, but it turns into a balancing act where we just keep adding more. Then when it's too loud we turn everything down and start the dance all over again.

If we can get the drums down a bit, we would be good.

An example was this Sunday, we didn't have the guitar player, so it was a bit quieter and had more control over drums in the house.



I don't understand why, if the drums are too loud, you are micing them.
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David Buckley

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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 04:59:25 PM »

If a drummer offers to use electronic drums, then just bite his arm off and go with it.  Its your lucky day.

if you do go electronic that the kit has an individual line out for every drum....  You don't want to try to mix the kit on the kit itself. I promise.
Whereas I don't disagree this in principle, an electronic kit on stereo outs with a an annoying imbalance is still 1000% better than an acoustic kit that is too damned loud, and will almost certainly still sound better than you are likely to achieve with an acoustic kit on its own, or a mic'd acoustic kit except under the best of circumstances and equipment.

Particularly when you have a committed musician, and most drummers I've come across that voluntarily choose to go electric are made of the right stuff.

Finally, once one gets beyond the L/R out. before the many outputs, one gets to L/R plus a couple of others, which can be used for kick and snare, leaving the mix for the other stuff.  Some drum brains with MIDI in will let you control the things via MIDI too, so although its a bit out there, and not every touring engineers cup of tea, you can mix the things remotely into L/R, maybe with fx as well, and control of dynamics.  In a fixed setup, its not a bad approach.
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Re: Electronic drums? Or Zildjian low volume cymbals and quieter heads
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 04:59:25 PM »


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